Secnade/Alt-Frag

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MB2 is balanced around knockdowns (Concussion blobs, concussion grenades, SBD and Jedi slap, Deka repulse, and more). Most knockdowns require skill or smart positioning to obtain: Concussion blobs require you to directly hit targets with a slower projectile, concussion grenades require good timing and can be pushed, and slaps and repulse have extremely short range, making them ineffective in most firefights without some sort of gap closer or positioning advantage.

However, what stands out is Sec-Nade, or Alt-Frag. An instant knockdown on all but Wookie, Deka, and SBD (and even then SBD can be knocked over with Alt-Frag if ioned by clone), against classes without quick getup it spells nearly certain death in 1v1 scenarios, not to mention its power when supported by a Jedi or snipers that can instagib downed classes. It doesn't require a direct hit, has a good range, and against soldiers, ETs, clones, mandos, bhs, and heroes, it almost always swings the fight in favor of the person who secnades first, since it grants free shots against an immobilized target.

You might think that there is a similar problem with concussion blobs or concussion grenades, but the thing is that alt-frag is much more difficult to counter. Fast classes such as bh or hero can strafe faster than most clones can blob them with, and even slow classes like soldier can survive blobs by strafing and crouching erratically. Concussion grenades have fuses that allow you to know when it might be thrown, allowing you to dodge if you have good timing and positioning. However, secnade can be thrown at any time after being charged up and detonates instantly with an area of effect, so as long as the person carrying the nade aims in the general area of the player, they will score a knockdown.

The thing about balancing MB2 is: Do we want every ability to have a counterplay if the opponent is skilled/smart enough? In my opinion, yes. Assuming a level playing field, every ability ought to have at least a limited counterplay. Push and Pull have walk and crouch, grenades have push, etc. However, alt-frag destroys that balance since against most classes, taking a shot or 2 doesn't matter as long as you hit the secnade, there is no timer to use to time pushes or dodges against it, and dodging it is extremely difficult at mid-close range, meaning that there is almost no counterplay against it in a straight firefight, and against people who corner camp with a secnade, there is no counterplay besides being a wookie, dexterity 3 arc, or a jedi with quick getup.

What if crouch negated the secnade knockdown? This introduces a skilled counterplay at range, so that players with good reflexes or cautious players could negate the possibility of being instagibbed by alt-frag, This allows counterplay to corner camping instagib Sec-Nade, and introduces more mindgames between Jedi v Gunner since the Jedi could now advance at no risk while crouching at the cost of being an easy target to be shot at by teammates. Additionally, it makes quickthrow level 2 more worth investing in since you can threaten to secnade while being able to fire, a powerful combination. If necessary, a short (~0.3 second) stagger on crouching opponents when secnaded could be added, just long enough for the user to switch weapons, could be applied.

In general, counterplay in MB2 should be balanced around skilled gameplay, not around players who decide to camp corners for minutes at a time for free kills. This would enhance gameplay and make it more rewarding and proactive to play against secnade spammers.

Edit: Another suggestion was also made to make secnade work like current concussion grenades (with a timer), and to find a new nade for soldiers.
 
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Your suggested idea for crouch is maybe a little bit too gamebreaking because of the fact that it COMPLETELY nullifies the grenade. What happens when I throw it at them does the nade just disappear because they crouched for a split second? That sounds really silly to me... Maybe if it staggered and did a pretty good amount of damage it'd be okay but I think we could change it in a much better and skill-promoting way.

here's an idea:

- Remove Concs and keep Frag Grenades
- Replace the Alt frag function of the frag nade to that of the conc. (Cooking the grenade and timing)

This would give someone at least an audio queue and some time to evade a incoming grenade knockdown rather than not hear it at all and get knocked and killed 9/10 times. It also would add some element of skill because someone would have to properly time the grenade and throw it at the enemy at the right time rather than hold it around a corner fully charged the entire round or panic switch to it for a quick cheap kill.
 
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Crouch used to stop all explosive knockdowns ages ago. It sucked and was dumb, especially against Jedi. Shit, back then they even had the same blast radius as primaries. They're fine now.
I've heard about that. In my opinion, that was broken since it'd stop primaries and regular explosions from knocking you over as well. My suggestion is mainly just for the instances where one gunner has a secnade and wins a 1v1 because he spent 10/15 points buying one and camped a corner. I understand that you think it'd make jedi too strong to have a counter to this, but considering they already have quick getup and you can barely shoot them once if they use quick getup, I don't really see how this would be any more broken, especially if tanking the secnade with crouch staggered and did ~8-12 damage anyway, or even damaged their fp a little bit. I simply feel that the lack of counterplay behind secnade is just too difficult to overcome in a reasonable manner by humanoid gunners besides simply staying far away from possible corner campers, which isn't how gameplay should work. To claim that "they're fine now" is kinda interesting just because I'm unsure why a class like soldier or ET or clone should be punished for not being able to dodge a surprise AOE knockdown that is silent if already charged up. I'd also be ok with Vortex's suggestion on changing secnade to be more like concussion grenades.
 

KarusBadders

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You raise good points, but I'm not sure if alt-frags are that big of an issue.
I think, perhaps, at least in terms of Frag Nades, have it so that Soldier's don't get a nade for every life. Maybe like, one, per round (with nade cost being adjusted, maybe).
I think this would be a less game-changing thing, it's a subtle change and I think other classes would benefit from not being naded as much.
The crouch thing is a cool idea but it introduces even more problems, I think.
 
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Your suggested idea for crouch is maybe a little bit too gamebreaking because of the fact that it COMPLETELY nullifies the grenade. What happens when I throw it at them does the nade just disappear because they crouched for a split second? That sounds really silly to me... Maybe if it staggered and did a pretty good amount of damage it'd be okay but I think we could change it in a different way.

here's an idea:

- Remove Concs and keep Frag Grenades
- Replace the Alt frag function of the frag nade to that of the conc. (Cooking the grenade and timing)

This would give someone at least an audio queue and some time to evade a incoming grenade knockdown rather than not hear it at all and get knocked and killed 9/10 times. It also would add some element of skill because someone would have to properly time the grenade and throw it at the enemy at the right time rather than hold it around a corner fully charged the entire round or panic switch to it for a quick cheap kill.
Best and easiest solution right here devs
 

Fluffy |>

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Make knockdown only on direct body or leg hit?
 

SomeGuy

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The problem is you'd be making saberists even more powerful to deny one of the few threats there are, and how small it is. They have quick get up so the window they are vulnerable after a secnade is pretty short, removing that is kinda of shitty. Add of the fact that most use Push 3, the strongest source of knockdowns int he entire mod (which you excluded from the the OP). Yeah it sucks when you're a different class like ET or clone that gets sec naded and riddled with shots. But look at it. Frags are very costly and very low ammo, the secondary function has much lower range and ammo. They're practically a one off. They could likely use some fine tuning but there are higher priorities IMO.
 

FrenzY

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I'd prefer to see something like:
  • Primary Frag explodes on contact if hitting a dead body (this is just plain fun and shouldn't have ever been removed)
  • Alt frag knockdown - radius (potentially larger) causes a stagger animation as opposed to knockdown. Knockdown happens upon very close/direct hit (which does 2x damage than current)
  • Switching to melee and holding block over a nade absorbs 50% damage and protects nearby teammates.
Some nade / poison tweaks should be priorities for the next gameplay patch imo
 
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I kind of see your point. I'd like there to be some sort of delay changing mechanic based on how well the sec nade was actually aimed at a target and rewarding based on that. On second thought, this should apply to all knockdown grenades. Except this cooldown change wouldn't be very relevant towards jedi as they manage to quick getup regardless.

Edit:
Basically what Frenzy said about
  • Alt frag knockdown - radius (potentially larger) causes a stagger animation as opposed to knockdown. Knockdown happens upon very close/direct hit (which does 2x damage than current)
 

Fluffy |>

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Having only a well aimed secondary nade or body hit cause knockdown makes the most sense to me
 
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The problem is you'd be making saberists even more powerful to deny one of the few threats there are, and how small it is. They have quick get up so the window they are vulnerable after a secnade is pretty short, removing that is kinda of shitty. Add of the fact that most use Push 3, the strongest source of knockdowns int he entire mod (which you excluded from the the OP). Yeah it sucks when you're a different class like ET or clone that gets sec naded and riddled with shots. But look at it. Frags are very costly and very low ammo, the secondary function has much lower range and ammo. They're practically a one off. They could likely use some fine tuning but there are higher priorities IMO.
To be honest, I see your point, but I feel like this mentality assumes we had the terrible knockback and fp drain combination of last patch, where gunners outside of knockdown abilities like secnade had little chance in 1v1s vs jedi/sith. In its current form, slightly nerfing the one "cheesy" way to kill jedi/sith in favor of the aim (read: skill) based way to kill them based on draining fp and knockback makes a lot more sense to me. For them to be invulnerable to secnade in my suggestion, they'd have to crouch, and they'd be drained of fp in around a dozen E11 shots if they just crouched and walked at you, so I don't think it's a super "easy" way for the jedi/sith to win. Like I said, they already have quick getup, so this isn't really so much of a game-changer vs jedi/sith as it is vs gunners who have no counterplay at the moment.

I'd be totally cool if it just didn't knock down sans a direct bodyhit too, would definitely make it take way more skill. If that happens, tho, just make it stagger if you hit the AOE so that you don't waste 15 points for twitching or guessing wrong and missing by a hair.
 
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