Poll: Flinch

[GoodOl'Ben]

Just a quick poll out of curiosity.

The feature is in place to deter Jedi/Sith from trading HP for a kill.

General complaints:

• Takes control away from the player
• Grants more power to weapons with high rates of fire
  
• Currently unreliable (activation range is too short)

 

[Noob]

bring back knockback
flinch is yawn

 

[Calrus]

I think maybe if a jedi or sith is low in FP flinch should happen as you know they use FP to block and greater amounts used when aiming blaster bolt back at the shooter . Im a duelist and I often play Open because I love it but the fact a jedi swings slower and has flinch pisses me off , I hate flinch I would like it to be gone but if its to stay id like jedi as a counter to it be able to swing faster as if on a duel server or a fraction slower , I dunno really know how Id like it to be changed but it would like it to be nerfed

 

[Dra-Gon]

I dislike flinch, both when playing as gunner and saberist.

From the technical point of view

1. It is unreliable
   
   
   • It happened many times to me that I was shooting the lightsaber of an attacking jedi and still got sliced in half. Didn't seem as if he swingblocked (no decrease in movement speed). But perhaps I am mistaken here and am simply salty about this. But I do have a question on the reliability part of this - how does it account for ping difference? Say a guy with 100 ping is attacking me and I am trying to flinch him. How does it behave? What about different saber styles? At least from the logical standpoint it seems that a guy with cyan/blue style won't get flinched that much.
2. No information
   
   
   • For something that plays a vital role in saber x gun combat, there is surprisingly little to no information about how exactly this behaves. Going on MB Wiki, you can find a mention about it in lightsaber weapon page, where it is simply stated that when attacking gunner, they can flinch you but won't do "anything" if the jedi swingblocks. But what does "won't do anything" mean - no damage to jedi, or no flinch?). There was a time when I was really frustrated about this, since I had no idea how to counter it and had to search old release notes to find anything (and so to learn that it can be partially countered by swingblocking)
3. It doesn't account for different RoFs
   
   
   • Or does it? If so, how? All I see really is that you can take clone with rifle 3 and you suddenly have rather easy life against sith, unless they use lightning on you, which is a different episode.

Also, this is more of a question, but doesn't swing block deal less damage? If so, flinch is even less appealing to me, as the choices presented to me are:
a) Don't swingblock. I can slice the guy in half, provided I don't flinch. But if I do, I don't only get disarmed for some time, I also get hp damage and lose a load of fp.
b) Swingblock. Still dunno how this will behave if I would flinch (takes no hp? stops attack?), but I still lose FP and most likely won't kill someone like ARC in 1 hit or wook in 2-3 hits.

From the more emotional point:

• First of all, I believe the mechanic works on the principle of taking a cookie out of child's hand when it was about to take a bite out of it. That's not something I like, as I am quite often the child.
• Before flinch, sure you could get ambushed and died... but so you do about 75% of the time if you are alone, anyway. And what happened to baiting people and predicting where someone can be?
• So the idea was to prevent ambush. Did anyone account for a thinking player that will use pull, push, lightning or mind trick? I mean, the most used force powers are without doubt pull and push and the only reason they do not epitomize an EZ ambush kill is the shitty hit box of a grounded enemy. But really - this whole 'ambush prevention' thing fails the moment the saberist decides to use force power, which makes the whole thing end in the same way it would with no flinch but 2 seconds later.
• It promotes brainlessness. And I mean that in the following scenario: some times it is unfair that you get ambushed. But most of the times you deserve to get killed. The moment, a group of clones walk through doors together means a sith ambusher is dead even if he is the first to strike - simply due to flinch. But skill-wise, if the group of clones was that stupid as to walk through the doors as group, they did deserve to die.
• The easy way to flinch an enemy with high RoF weapon makes me sad too. A prime example for me is when I was fighting Hex on echo base. He was sith and I was various different classes, going through jedi, hero and elite trooper - and I was getting killed all the time (even if I did damage him). Took clone rifle 3 clone. Hex stood no chance since I was just alternating between run/walk without getting baited and flinched him to hell if he attacked or slowly drained his FP till he had none. This did make the game seem trivial suddenly and no fun.
• The core idea of flinch is to punish a melee class for attacking in melee range. It simply doesn't make sense to me.

So I am for removing it. But if you guys want to keep it, can you make sure that it behaves consistently, deterministically and that it is not a black box to everyone but dev (and possibly testers)? Also, that it treats all weapons fairly (e.g. introduce flinch cooldown?)

If you guys want to remove it, how about playing with other things, like IDR? Perhaps making it more transparent to the gunner at what point he stands (e.g. similar to colored crosshair when clashing sabers, perhaps color crosshair if you shoot jedi while IDR, while he is jumping and it takes a lot of his fp, etc.). Don't know how it would look if implemented, though.
Or introduce new anti-jedi skills to selected classes.

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

• First of all, I believe the mechanic works on the principle of taking a cookie out of child's hand when it was about to take a bite out of it. That's not something I like, as I am quite often the child.
• Before flinch, sure you could get ambushed and died... but so you do about 75% of the time if you are alone, anyway. And what happened to baiting people and predicting where someone can be?
• So the idea was to prevent ambush. Did anyone account for a thinking player that will use pull, push, lightning or mind trick? I mean, the most used force powers are without doubt pull and push and the only reason they do not epitomize an EZ ambush kill is the shitty hit box of a grounded enemy. But really - this whole 'ambush prevention' thing fails the moment the saberist decides to use force power, which makes the whole thing end in the same way it would with no flinch but 2 seconds later.
• It promotes brainlessness. And I mean that in the following scenario: some times it is unfair that you get ambushed. But most of the times you deserve to get killed. The moment, a group of clones walk through doors together means a sith ambusher is dead even if he is the first to strike - simply due to flinch. But skill-wise, if the group of clones was that stupid as to walk through the doors as group, they did deserve to die.
• The easy way to flinch an enemy with high RoF weapon makes me sad too. A prime example for me is when I was fighting Hex on echo base. He was sith and I was various different classes, going through jedi, hero and elite trooper - and I was getting killed all the time (even if I did damage him). Took clone rifle 3 clone. Hex stood no chance since I was just alternating between run/walk without getting baited and flinched him to hell if he attacked or slowly drained his FP till he had none. This did make the game seem trivial suddenly and no fun.
• The core idea of flinch is to punish a melee class for attacking in melee range. It simply doesn't make sense to me.

The cookie you reference is our lives, and just because you've closed the distance between us and yourself in no way entitles you to them. The entire point of flinch was to make gunners more than just cookies. The developers wisely realized that we needed some sort of mechanic to keep the mindless portion of the Jedi glow-stick horde at bay, bearing in mind that such mindless goons can practically one-hit normal targets, and block/reflect all manner of bullets/projectiles.

Spoiler

The keyword there is mindless. Skilled Jedi/Sith are fully capable of bypassing a fragile clone-trooper, or even a amateur SBD with ease.

 

[Stassin]

Goliath does this mean you are opposed to the removal of flinch without a similar alternative ?

 

[President Bossk]

The cookie you reference is our lives, and just because you've closed the distance between us and yourself in no way entitles you to them. The entire point of flinch was to make gunners more than just cookies. The developers wisely realized that we needed some sort of mechanic to keep the mindless portion of the Jedi glow-stick horde at bay, bearing in mind that such mindless goons can practically one-hit normal targets, and block/reflect all manner of bullets/projectiles.

Spoiler

The keyword there is mindless. Skilled Jedi/Sith are fully capable of bypassing a fragile clone-trooper, or even a amateur SBD with ease.

Goliath you big metal hunk of junk, I love you.

 

[Hexodious]

I like flinch. Before flinch (with knockback) you'd just trade minimal hp for guaranteed kills as your saber passes through them while you are getting knocked back. On the other-hand if knockback was too severe to avoid the above situation it would be extremely frustrating to play against.

I don't like damage reduction though and agree it should go.

Flinch needs to be improved with a more stable activation range, and non-universal settings vs all weapons. Clone Rifle/SBD come to mind with their amazing anti-jedi toolkits on-top of the best flinching weapons.

 

[Jeob]

I kinda agree with Dragon, flinch is no fun whether you're the gunner or the saberist. Restrictive mechanism are no fun, if you want to swing around your saber then you should be able to.

Flinch isn't consistent enough to stop the mindless swings anyway. Usually jedi still just swing until they get the kill or die, and very often it still happens that a jedi just trades HP for a kill (maybe 1 flinch happens), and cause of superior DR jedi comes out with more HP of the exchange than in previous builds without flinch.

And we can't really call it mindless swing as the jedi doesn't really have any other choice sometimes. In theory the gunner can just stand still cause with perfect aim he'll just flinch the jedi, he's untouchable, the only way for him to die is if he runs and gets pushed. So he won't run, then what can the jedi do about him? Retreat, just hold block and jump(best option), cheese with mt/speed/grip/lightning, try deflect, push even though it won't work? It's natural that many jedi will just swing anyway, they don't really have a better choice for attacking. And in theory they get flinched (or interrupted if swingblock) 3-4 times and die. But that's not a common experience in real gameplay, cause flinch is unreliable and people don't have perfect aim AND random deflects/saber getting in the way of the shot while swinging. Random deflects/blocks while swinging are a big issue in the game btw, imo they're one of the reasons why jedi vs gunner can feel inconsistent, but that's off topic here. So back to the point, in the end the jedi is rewarded with a kill for a stupid decision. The result depends on the guns too, as Dragon mentioned, with cr3 it's very easy to flinch so against cr3 jedi/sith really shouldn't go yolo swinging, but against let's say e-11 it's definitely still a good option. You may get flinched once or twice but you still can get the kill or retreat thanks to DR and low block fp drains in many situations.

Overall whether flinch gets removed or not, I'm fine with it.
But removing it is a step backwards so we could say then why did you even implement it in the first place? Someone must have believed in flinch, that it would serve a good purpose in mb2. I don't like the idea that we should just return to a previous state of the game, it's not like the knockback system was perfect, it's one of the reasons why someone came up with flinch in the 1st place.
Probably I'm on the side of try to improve flinch, but I'm not sure how to go about that. Maybe what if you could get flinched only once in an engagement by giving flinch a 10 second cooldown? After all the main purpose was to give gunner protection against close ambushes that are unavoidable, right? 1 flinch is already a big help but at the same time gunner can't be like "I'm just gonna stand here and flinch you to death if you try to attack me.", he'll have to move. I can see drawbacks with this, I just tried giving an idea.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

Contrary to popular belief, a skilled jedi can indeed go head to head with myself. In such cases, the jedi must maintain a crouching position when in close proximity, swing very quickly, and quite possibly switch it up with reflection. Regardless, I have only met a small handful of jedi that have mastered anti-SBD combat, to the point where we find ourselves at a constant stalemate.

My point is: Killing a SBD is indeed possible, with SBDs of lower skill being killed with ease. That is why I am not in favor of entire teams switching to Super Battle Droid in honor of my presence. Typically, just one enemy Jedi will cut them all down, usually assisted by a clone. This is because the Super Battle Droid chassis is much more than simply pointing and shooting at the enemy. There is a great reason why I seldom engage in offensive maneuvers, but rather defend a singular position.

Spoiler: Example [taken moments before all of them died]

There are of course many more secret details to this that I do not want to exchange, but in short, Jedi can be very challenging. I would encourage developers to have a private discussion with me before making large changes to the Super Battle Droid, as I find that I can provide a wealth of insight on that oh so forgotten other side of the fight. Everyone sees the battle from the eyes of the Jedi, but a seldom few view it from the side of the droid, who if damaged, will suffer a great decrease in fire rate. Who is unable to jump, and is for the most part immobile. The droid which is reliant on blitzkrieg tactics due to the dangers of long engagements.

Spoiler: Normal SBD versus Skilled SBD

I can go on and on, but I am not the type to simply expose all of my weaknesses because someone finds that I am too 'OP'. The developers shouldn't just give Jedi stools to stand on so that even the most babe of Jedi can threaten me with their raddles.

Spoiler

This poll is just a gunner versus Jedi/Sith poll. Everyone knows that jedi exist in much greater abundance than dedicated gunners. As for Super Battle Droids, not enough of us exist to combat these sorts of public opinion contests.

Well of course you're going to have some bias here with SBD's, but my friend you are completely wrong. A jedi will have to crouch in order to avoid getting slapped down, yes? What happens when you're crouched - your movement speed is nearly nothing, making it very easy for an SBD to flinch in this situation. SBD's (depending on the build) also have very high fire rates and can shoot almost immediately after a slap. And then you have the SBD's HP and cortosis to deal with.

Of course you can give examples of when Jedi kill SBDs, but that doesn't mean anything. I can show you examples of when normal soldiers gun down jedi.

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

SBD OP, and shoots real fast. I move slow when I crouch.

I don't recall your fire-rate being dependent on your move-speed as mine very much is. Nor do I remember your ability to block/reflect projectiles being dependent on it. Furthermore, quite frankly, a Jedi can kill a Super Battle Droid in under three seconds through multiple side to side swings. When I circle a Jedi, it is very much like circling a snake. We both hold an understanding that within seconds, both of us can die. Furthermore, I shouldn't be telling you this, but damaging my chassis also damages my battery, and thereby my fire-rate. This means that I am reliant on blitzkrieg combat. To further weaken my model, I am unable to chase Jedi, who if they are smart, will not just charge at me, and will instead simply damage my battery.

This is why so many of you organics die by my hand. None of you have an ounce of patience, and instead charge in like 'heroes' only to be put down like vermin by a hailstorm of blaster-fire. There are many more tactics that can be used, but this is a taste. I will not share any more secret weaknesses, and instead will expect you to have faith, in that I assure you, a skilled Jedi can indeed fight me. The only problem is, you are not one such Jedi. As respectfully as I can, I assuredly tell you that it is unlikely that you have dedicated yourself to anti-SBD training, and it is instead likely that you desire to simply be able to kill a Super Battle Droid like every other gunner you encounter.

Of course you can give examples of when Jedi kill SBDs, but that doesn't mean anything. I can show you examples of when normal soldiers gun down jedi.

That is how it is supposed to be, it is called balance.

Spoiler: In Regards to Stassin

@Stassin The return of flinch changed my combat methods for the better. A reliable alternative is acceptable, but I would strongly recommend against removing it outright, without something to take its place. I should never need to consider novice Jedi a threat, just as a master duelist doesn't consider a novice jedi anything more than a mere plaything.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Flinch needs to be improved with a more stable activation range, and non-universal settings vs all weapons. Clone Rifle/SBD come to mind with their amazing anti-jedi toolkits on-top of the best flinching weapons.

I'm mostly in the same camp as Hex.

Generally I'm against removing an introduced mechanic before exhausting a couple of other options. With that said, I'm not opposed to removing it if perceptions don't change after the attempts to improve it. I hope we can rapidly try out a fix and see where it stands while looking into design alternatives internally. Hopefully people also keep an open mind when we iterate.

Perhaps making it more transparent to the gunner at what point he stands (e.g. similar to colored crosshair when clashing sabers, perhaps color crosshair if you shoot jedi while IDR, while he is jumping and it takes a lot of his fp, etc.). Don't know how it would look if implemented, though.

This is a tremendously good suggestion overall! I like it a lot. Also a very good point in Flinch being annoying because it acts like The Last Jedi in the sense that it "subverts expectations".

 

[President Bossk]

The thing is, is that people who main jedi always hate flinch, whether it's balanced or not. Not saying ALL jedi main's are like that of course but a lot of them are. And so far only dra-gon is the only one to make a good argument against flinch.

 

[Tempest]

I don't like flinch on either side of it (saberist or gunner). I think it's an okay idea at its core but all of the stuff needed to counter-balance it make things vastly worse (see damage reduction as the biggest offender, which can't be taken away while also keeping flinch because then it's just flip flopping balance all over the place) as a whole. There's no consistent way to account for every different weapon and their fire rate + balance it for every style (just look at the huge variance in using Blue vs a gunner compared to using Red). I'd rather just get rid of it and have all of the other garbage that we're stuck with by proxy gone and just have a simpler solution (e.g. increased knockback + no damage reduction or other obnoxious mechanics/functionality). Cleaner gameplay and simpler/easier to balance things around.

Flinch also doesn't even help in the majority of cases that it was supposed to. People can still flail around/go completely stupid levels of reckless and get kills (whether because it isn't triggering, swings aren't delayed enough, etc). Damage reduction also still allows for large quantities of trading health for kills (which is one of the main points regarding issues of saber v gunner balance in past builds). Super fun watching semi-noob saberists flailing around and getting staggered 5 times in a row and still managing to take one or two people with them! No actual solutions were accomplished with flinch (except maybe keeping someone from literally just running in a straight line at you while swinging, but no DR + decent FP drains would accomplish the same thing). Just more inconsistencies and overall feeling of bleh in gameplay.

TL;DR - I'd rather just be able to drain a saberist's FP at a reasonable rate and have them die in a couple shots than have to deal with clunky super tank hordes of sabers and rely on pseudo-RNG to kill saberists of any skill.

 

[Noob]

good that u bring up flailing is a somewhat viable strat. ive experienced this a lot as gunner, most of the time its the noobs that kill me and not the defensive mindset vets that stay cautious

 

[Szunti]

What if jedi couldn't push/pull after deflect for 0.5-1 second? Then if you hit them consistently you don't have to walk. Grenades/rockets would also work if teammates shoot the saberists. I think this would add a lot to team strategies. Could also work with lightning/grip maybe with even longer cooldowns. Sound more reasonable than minimal fp or the slow grip. Eg. if you can dodge the gunner shots for 2-3 seconds you can grip them immediately.

 

[Stassin]

What if jedi couldn't push/pull after deflect for 0.5-1 second? Then if you hit them consistently you don't have to walk. Grenades/rockets would also work if teammates shoot the saberists. I think this would add a lot to team strategies. Could also work with lightning/grip maybe with even longer cooldowns. Sound more reasonable than minimal fp or the slow grip. Eg. if you can dodge the gunner shots for 2-3 seconds you can grip them immediately.

This is a pretty neat idea, it's in fact somewhat already like that because deflecting makes you stuck in a blocking animation; except it only lasts about 150ms. That's enough for my taste, jedi with restricted force power usage won't feel very good. But the direction of the idea is correct.

 

[Tempest]

Eg. if you can dodge the gunner shots for 2-3 seconds you can grip them immediately.

Never again.

 

[Dorito]

What if jedi couldn't push/pull after deflect for 0.5-1 second? Then if you hit them consistently you don't have to walk. Grenades/rockets would also work if teammates shoot the saberists. I think this would add a lot to team strategies. Could also work with lightning/grip maybe with even longer cooldowns. Sound more reasonable than minimal fp or the slow grip. Eg. if you can dodge the gunner shots for 2-3 seconds you can grip them immediately.

I actually thought about something like this too. i'd even be ok with this replacing flinch and lower fp drains. But devs seem to like knockdown way too much so I don't think something like this would ever be implemented.

 

[Szunti]

Never again.

I don't get how it is more fair that you hit the sith 10 times and he still can grab you, your only chance is to run away, but then you die to a push.

 

[Tempest]

I don't get how it is more fair that you hit the sith 10 times and he still can grab you, your only chance is to run away, but then you die to a push.

Grip and Lightning both have a high requirement of FP to be able to use them, as well as actual cost of activation. This is a good counterbalance (currently) when you can actually drain their FP (which you can't if they're just sitting and blocking in public patch). Instant grip was a thing in the past and it was horrible to play against. Grip lock instead of instant activation was one of the best changes that ever happened.