Poll: Flinch

GoodOl'Ben

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Just a quick poll out of curiosity.

The feature is in place to deter Jedi/Sith from trading HP for a kill.

General complaints:
  • Takes control away from the player
  • Grants more power to weapons with high rates of fire
  • Currently unreliable (activation range is too short)
 

Lessen

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voted Yes With Larger Activation Range but I'm always up for trying any other variants including removal, although if it's removed I would hope it would be replaced with some other method of preventing trading HP for a kill. Like, knockback? I guess that was previously a thing? I haven't been around long enough.
 

Eazy E

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Just a quick poll out of curiosity.

The feature is in place to deter Jedi/Sith from trading HP for a kill.

General complaints:
  • Takes control away from the player
  • Grants more power to weapons with high rates of fire
  • Currently unreliable (activation range is too short)
It's cancer remove it and increase FP drain from blasters.
 

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It's cancer remove it and increase FP drain from blasters.
The conundrum with this is... high FP drains would make it so the goal is to gun down the Jedi before they get close, but if they ambush you from close range then you're basically completely fucked unless you pull some Melee antics. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

And on that note (camping), there's a real problem of Jedi/Sith on the defending team being rewarded too strongly for stalling play. This is map specific, though. Some maps (particularly maps with objectives that you have to shoot to destroy) are much harder to stall on.
 

Stassin

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and give back knockback and remove 20% dmg reduction on block
The current knockback calculation is the same as what it's always been in v0, but since it is dependant of damage, because of jedi damage reduction it is slightly less. Just want to stress that making the knockback the same as v0 (for example by removing the dmg reduction) would make almost no difference in terms of helping gun vs saber at close range (except when landing headshots).

The conundrum with this is... high FP drains would make it so the goal is to gun down the Jedi before they get close, but if they ambush you from close range then you're basically completely fucked unless you pull some Melee antics. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Couldn't agree more. But think of it this way: if a melee wookiee ambushes you, or a SBD drops down on you from a concealed high ground, or a mando swoops down on you and rockets, or an invisible sniper from miles away headshots you, or even any gunner class with secondary nades corner-ambushes you, aren't these similar problems ?
 
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I'm not sure what to think about flinch. It made fighting against new saberists who would otherwise happily trade hp for a kill less frustrating.

But now it's also harder than before to fight skilled saberists. Unless you go for weapons with high firing rates, then it becomes easy again.
That surely is messy.

I doubt that it's possible to fix those issues without making it more complex and less intuitive. If that isn't a problem then i'd say try to improve flinch, i still think it was a reasonable idea in the first place.
 

Helix

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Getting mad because flinch just won't work?
Solution: play sith/jedi and laugh at those who get mad because flinch just won't work.
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Couldn't agree more. But think of it this way: if a melee wookiee ambushes you, or a SBD drops down on you from a concealed high ground, or a mando swoops down on you and rockets, or an invisible sniper from miles away headshots you, or even any gunner class with secondary nades corner-ambushes you, aren't these similar problems ?
Yes? And I consider most of those to also be points of frustration I have with MB2. It's not that I have a problem with ambushes per se, but I have a problem with completely unanticipatable insta-kill ambushes (which includes insta-knockdown ambushes). I'm inclined to agree with Achilles that sec-nade in particular is just bullshit free damage in far too many situations. Not that I mind the concept of knockdown, I just mind that sec-nade has very poor counterplay options for gunner classes.

That being said, the current state of the game could be fine in a competitive context, where people with Force Sense communicate constantly, but I'm sliding towards agreeing with Achilles (pretty sure he said something like this at some point a while ago) that the game should be balanced for Open mode rather than for the very rare competitive matches. As in: less rock-paper-scissors between all the classes.

The competitive scene just isn't there, especially for NA.

And I don't like dying to something unanticipatable, something with no counterplay other than "pray for one of the few competitively-minded, teamwork-minded NA players to join my team and agree to work together." Although I suppose other counterplay options for pragmatic stealth include: 1. let the rest of my team walk in front of me and trigger the traps, 2. pick my way along extremely slowly, burning a ton of time checking for every possible ambush.
 
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Couldn't agree more. But think of it this way: if a melee wookiee ambushes you, or a SBD drops down on you from a concealed high ground, or a mando swoops down on you and rockets, or an invisible sniper from miles away headshots you, or even any gunner class with secondary nades corner-ambushes you, aren't these similar problems ?

I don't think so, because those attacks are either limited (nades,rockets), or take a lot of skill (sniper, talking about long range hs' here since i agree something should be done with pop-up sniping, too). It's similar to the melee wookiee, but those can't take as many bullets or even recharge their hp like saberists recharge fp. They don't have force powers either.
 
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I don't think so, because those attacks are either limited (nades,rockets), or take a lot of skill (sniper, talking about long range hs' here since i agree something should be done with pop-up sniping, too). It's similar to the melee wookiee, but those can't take as many bullets or even recharge their hp like saberists recharge fp. They don't have force powers either.
Honestly, snipers are not balanced. The maps are often big enough and have so much actions that spotting any sniper hiding in a corner is barely possible unless you have sense. For most 1 life class (other than with dodge) you'll be dead before anything else. Rockets might kill you in one hit but you have clues and there is travel distance like with nades. Snipers have nearly hitscan weapons that can kill you in one hit. Yes they require good aiming but in a corridor, you'll have to go around the whole map to flank a sniper.
 
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I know I've been very vocal against flinch, but after giving it some thought, I think it needs to stay.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean it's without flaws!

The problem with flinch is that it's universal (it applies to every class the same way) and that's the balance issue here. You have classes that already have anti-saberist abilities (i.e clones, SBDs, and so on) that will now stack with flinch.

So you either need to remove flinch for these specific classes or change/nerf it somehow.
 

Stassin

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Yes? And I consider most of those to also be points of frustration I have with MB2. It's not that I have a problem with ambushes per se, but I have a problem with completely unanticipatable insta-kill ambushes (which includes insta-knockdown ambushes). I'm inclined to agree with Achilles that sec-nade in particular is just bullshit free damage in far too many situations. Not that I mind the concept of knockdown, I just mind that sec-nade has very poor counterplay options for gunner classes.

That being said, the current state of the game could be fine in a competitive context, where people with Force Sense communicate constantly, but I'm sliding towards agreeing with Achilles (pretty sure he said something like this at some point a while ago) that the game should be balanced for Open mode rather than for the very rare competitive matches. As in: less rock-paper-scissors between all the classes.

The competitive scene just isn't there, especially for NA.

And I don't like dying to something unanticipatable, something with no counterplay other than "pray for one of the few competitively-minded, teamwork-minded NA players to join my team and agree to work together." Although I suppose other counterplay options for pragmatic stealth include: 1. let the rest of my team walk in front of me and trigger the traps, 2. pick my way along extremely slowly, burning a ton of time checking for every possible ambush.
Agree with your arguments but getting shot from behind in a long hallway is also impossible to anticipate unless you have prior information about the enemy team's positioning. If it's a normal gun you'll just lose some HP and continue the fight with a disadvantage, if it's a sniper shot you insta die. Does this mean that any ability or weapon that has the potential to 1shot you, and also abilities that can severely incapacitate/cripple you (knockdown), should disappear ?

Because make no mistake, even if such instakill abilities or weapons had huge indicators to make them super easy to anticipate, there will still be situations in which you can't anticipate them, and situations where even if you do anticipate them you have no way to escape. In Overwatch you have a plethora of such abilities (mainly ultimate abilities) that can instakill you, they have MONSTROUS visual and audio indicators, and you even have another plethora of abilities (not even mainly ultimate abilities) to counter/escape them; yet people still die to them very often, unable to counter/escape. Because the enemies using them do so with the correct timing and positioning. If you're hanzo and a winston 1v1 is ulting in your face, you're gonna die no matter what you do, much like how you're gonna die if you got ambushed and knocked down by a wookiee as a mando.

However using teamwork you won't die beacuse you'll get healed. In mb2 there's no healing but using teamwork will still be the only way to approach certain situations when you've picked a certain class that gets counters by another, or when you get ambushed and can't do anything about it. Sure, teamwork is barely a thing in open mode play, but that doesn't mean the game shouldn't be designed around it - if it wasn't, that would extremely severely dumb it down.

Nevertheless Achilles' argument of "with superior/far superior skill any class should be able to defeat another, even if the game is designed around teamwork" still stands at this point. To counter it i would invoke the fact that mb2 strives hard to be "realistic in the star wars sense", far more so than any other star wars game ever released. Sure it could do so even more, but the whole point is that it already does quite alot, enough to give a unique feel to it. Several factors make it that way, especially the lack of respawns and the fact that you have a set amount of resources/abilities/ammo at the start of a round, the harshness of certain abilities given that you have no respawns. There's a reason it's meant to be a "star wars counter-strike" from the start. Moreover in non-competitive play it gives you sort of a feeling of pressure because you care more about surviving even though it's objective-based, which is a particularly addictive feeling (mainly because when you get kills, they aren't just gonna respawn so it's really satisfying). This paired with the fact that all these "frustrating abilities" exist, gives a particularly "realistic" feeling when playing, and removing even some of them would reduce it. Now i'm not saying totally removing sec frags would hurt too bad. But reduce the strength of melee wooks & snipers on top of it and it's already severely affecting the game. Twisting it so that any class can beat any other class 1v1 given enough skill difference removes a crucial part of that realistic feel: you shouldn't be able to do that. Not to mention alot of the mad fun you get playing mb2 when not tryharding, using all these "unfair uncounterable" abilities.
 
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@MuscBodypillow: That is mostly a map design issue, if most maps offer a path to objective without going through a long corridor without cover you have at least a good option against snipers. If we assume that any saberist waiting behind a corner should be able to kill a gunner without much trouble, i don't see the appeal of playing gunner at all unless all maps become open fields.
Thinking again about what Stassin said, it's true that there are easy kill mechanics for other classes as well, even though i don't totally agree with the comparisons.
But i guess the question is if they should even be in the game in the way they are right now or rather nerfed. I would say nerf them instead of giving everyone something similar, since i like arena shooters more than instant kill shooters and think it fits MB2 better.
 

Lessen

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@Stassin This is kind of a strange statement, but, thanks for reminding me of the fact that permadeath (and therefore permakilling) is a big part of what makes MB2 so exhilarating. Somewhere in the back of my mind I perpetually wonder how to "pitch" MB2 to people who haven't played it before; how to get at whatever it is that really makes it so exciting to play. While I'm not sure how I feel about each of your specific arguments, I will say I respect the general idea that making things more predictable/"fair" could run the risk of decreasing the excitement.

All that being said, sec frags are still not really very exciting. Although thinking about it there are some possible counterplay options I may have not explored enough yet. mmmm.

Wook Rage is still the source of the most-bullshit-situation-possible: "A wook killed my newbie teammate and I'm not a Sith/Mando, so I'm fucked."

....what if wooks could reduce blaster fire damage by melee blocking instead or something... haha... just... remove rage...
 
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SBDs
remove flinch for these specific classes or change/nerf it somehow.

Contrary to popular belief, a skilled jedi can indeed go head to head with myself. In such cases, the jedi must maintain a crouching position when in close proximity, swing very quickly, and quite possibly switch it up with reflection. Regardless, I have only met a small handful of jedi that have mastered anti-SBD combat, to the point where we find ourselves at a constant stalemate.

My point is: Killing a SBD is indeed possible, with SBDs of lower skill being killed with ease. That is why I am not in favor of entire teams switching to Super Battle Droid in honor of my presence. Typically, just one enemy Jedi will cut them all down, usually assisted by a clone. This is because the Super Battle Droid chassis is much more than simply pointing and shooting at the enemy. There is a great reason why I seldom engage in offensive maneuvers, but rather defend a singular position.

B8A2AEE0C41238C3357E67178AE4BACBC80C23F7

There are of course many more secret details to this that I do not want to exchange, but in short, Jedi can be very challenging. I would encourage developers to have a private discussion with me before making large changes to the Super Battle Droid, as I find that I can provide a wealth of insight on that oh so forgotten other side of the fight. Everyone sees the battle from the eyes of the Jedi, but a seldom few view it from the side of the droid, who if damaged, will suffer a great decrease in fire rate. Who is unable to jump, and is for the most part immobile. The droid which is reliant on blitzkrieg tactics due to the dangers of long engagements.

6020_screenshots_20160708002945_1_by_darkvinylscratch-dbh1vpp.jpg

I can go on and on, but I am not the type to simply expose all of my weaknesses because someone finds that I am too 'OP'. The developers shouldn't just give Jedi stools to stand on so that even the most babe of Jedi can threaten me with their raddles.

This poll is just a gunner versus Jedi/Sith poll. Everyone knows that jedi exist in much greater abundance than dedicated gunners. As for Super Battle Droids, not enough of us exist to combat these sorts of public opinion contests.
 
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Prior to flinch, whole teams would spam jedi and win every time. Insta-kill ambushes would be way too easy to set up without flinch. Wook is different because he takes a moment to kill and puts himself in a vulnerable position. Jedi can just swing block, insta-kill, and get right back behind cover. Jedi would also spam swing like a moron. It took no skill. Even a crappy jedi would be able to take at least one person with them before dying. If flinch is removed, other features are going to need reworking to balance game. Just removing flinch and leaving game as-is otherwise will ruin game balance. If someone can find another good alternative to balance jedi, I am all for removing flinch. Until then, I think it should remain.
 
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flinch gay but saberists should be somehow nerfed otherwise or they would be overpowered against gunners
 
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