Poison to negate Dash / Dodge

[KHAGE]

Pretty much what it says on the tin - to promote a more strategic use for poison, should Heroes get hit with poison their perks such as Dodge & Dash are negated for said time period.

I know you dash / dodge circle jerkers might be up in arms about this, but if we're talking realism if you were to get poisoned like that irl pretty sure you wouldn't be able to do jack shxt, let alone warp everywhere.

Unless this already is in place?

 

[Preston]

Yes I like this idea, but I believe it does negate dodge already.

 

[Apex]

I think it might be better for poison to negate dash's recharge as opposed to using the ability entirely. Poision prevents force regeneration but not being able to use the points you have, should work the same for dash imo. This will allow for some pretty strategic poisoning and Sith teamwork to take down pesky warping heroes.

As for dodge, as Preston said I think it already does. If not, I think it is a good idea.

 

[NERO]

Poison makes heroes unable to dodge already.

 

[Vitéz]

Poison Dart was always an anti-Jedi weapon. The twisted vision effect made it a useful weapon against gunners too, but it was taken away by restoring the old Poison Dart effect on the targets. I think it'd be a good idea to turn the Poison Dart into an ammo based weapon, so the ammo could affect the number of the darts; and make Poison Dart into a two level ability: the first level could have the current/old effect for 5 points, the second effect could have the twisted vision effect for +5 or for +10 points. Nowdays 3 Poison Darts are available for 5+5+5=15 points. With my idea, 3 Poison Darts could be available for 5+0+4+6=15 points (Darts + ammo lvl1 + lvl2 + lvl3), so it'd be the same (+ some more ammo, but tbh I never had ammo problems on BH anyway), but it'd be possible to enhance the darts into a stronger version (twisted vision) by buying lvl2

 

[Preston]

Poison Dart was always an anti-Jedi weapon. The twisted vision effect made it a useful weapon against gunners too, but it was taken away by restoring the old Poison Dart effect on the targets. I think it'd be a good idea to turn the Poison Dart into an ammo based weapon, so the ammo could affect the number of the darts; and make Poison Dart into a two level ability: the first level could have the current/old effect for 5 points, the second effect could have the twisted vision effect for +5 or for +10 points. Nowdays 3 Poison Darts are available for 5+5+5=15 points. With my idea, 3 Poison Darts could be available for 5+0+4+6=15 points (Darts + ammo lvl1 + lvl2 + lvl3), so it'd be the same (+ some more ammo, but tbh I never had ammo problems on BH anyway), but it'd be possible to enhance the darts into a stronger version (twisted vision) by buying lvl2

Twisted vision effect was bugged and controlled by a players fps

 

[Onysfx]

And since I run the game at around 30 fps, it was absolutely awful for me.

 

[Hexodious]

Poison should stop all resource regeneration on all targets (Buff - affects more resources, giving more valid targets):

• No Rage Generation (Wookiee)
• No Stamina Regeneration (Clone/ARC)
• No Dodge Regeneration (Commander/Hero)
• No BP Regeneration (Jedi/Sith)
• No Force Regeneration (Jedi/Sith

Poison should not stop the use of any abilities that require the above resources (Nerf - lets people dodge, everything else already works):

• Fury (Wookiee)
• Sprint/Dexterity (Clone/ARC)
• Dodge (Commander/Hero)
• Lightsaber (Jedi/Sith)
• Force Powers (Jedi/Sith)

The Ammo-binding idea Vitez brings up is interesting and allows for expansion later on (having a rank 2 poison or tracking dart as an example).

Poison Darts (X) (X*)
Rank 1: Unlocks Poison Darts (Ammo 1 = 1 Dart / Ammo 2 = 2 Darts / Ammo 3 = 3 Darts)
Rank 2: Additional effects:

• Slow Poison (longer duration but same total damage (gets more out of the resource stunting))
  
• Drains Resources (drains resources on tick rather than just halting generation/regeneration)
  
• Etc.

* Don't have to have a rank 2, its just space for expansion and gives more value to ammo

Tracking Darts (X) (X*)
Rank 1: Unlocks Tracking Darts (Ammo 1 = 2 Darts / Ammo 2 = 4 Darts / Ammo 3 = 6 Darts)
Rank 2: Additional effects:

• Beacon (also shows any nearby enemies close to the tracked target (could lead to interesting tracking of team mates - I already do this on Sith to see where they are looking around corners))
  
• Health Tracking (Remove this from level 1, apply to level 2 - its really powerful)
  
• Shared Radar (Allies can also see the tracked target via Radar)
  
• Etc.

* Don't have to have a rank 2, its just space for expansion and gives more value to ammo

On a side note Ammo certainly isn't balanced well on a lot of classes and should be looked at (some weapons have too much ammo and don't need to invest/some weapons have too little ammo and need rank 3/etc).

Edit: I agree with Apex, strikeout on edited content

Edit2: Expanded "Additional effects" that could be used on Rank 2 versions of the darts, a combination of these or other ideas could be used for adding power to additional rank(s). Also cleaned up information.

 

[Apex]

Poison should definitely not affect BP regeneration but I agree with the others.

 

[Hexodious]

Yes, I tend to agree - BP and the Lightsaber is more akin to Ammo and a Blaster and probably shouldn't be affected.

 

[Vitéz]

I hope you realize @Hexodious that only the Jedi will be badly hurted from the propoesed Poison Dart, so basically nothing will change... no stamina or dodge regeneration? So what? The targeted class is still 100% useful, the target must be a little more careful, thats all. The Wooks can be in tricky situation, but unless the poisoning happens in the middle of an open area without covers (like DotF Hangar), they can simply duck in cover and wait the poison to end, or you know... use the Bowcaster... so only melee Wooks would be badly affected from this. Poison Dart was always an anti-Jedi weapon, but lvl2 would be ridiculously OP against Jedi. FP is a core element of the Jedi class, you cant possibly think that negating for example stamina regeneration could be the same disadvantage for clones like negating FP regeneration is for Jedi.
The Tracking Dart lvl2 is unfair compared to the other team, because this is an imperial only ability... anyway, the idea isnt bad, however I'd prefer to cost more points, a team-wide wallhack for 5 points is too cheap.

 

[Ghost]

I think that the poison should not act on the Jedi/Sith cuz of lightsaber (Saber Deflect 3?). Jedi/Siths can fight off the poison

 

[Hexodious]

I hope you realize @Hexodious that only the Jedi will be badly hurted from the propoesed Poison Dart, so basically nothing will change... no stamina or dodge regeneration? So what? The targeted class is still 100% useful, the target must be a little more careful, thats all. The Wooks can be in tricky situation, but unless the poisoning happens in the middle of an open area without covers (like DotF Hangar), they can simply duck in cover and wait the poison to end, or you know... use the Bowcaster... so only melee Wooks would be badly affected from this. Poison Dart was always an anti-Jedi weapon, but lvl2 would be ridiculously OP against Jedi. FP is a core element of the Jedi class, you cant possibly think that negating for example stamina regeneration could be the same disadvantage for clones like negating FP regeneration is for Jedi.

Actually the draining resource part of rank 2 is already present (FP is drained on each tick of a poison dart since a few recent builds where the camera twisting was removed) so this would make the darts weaker vs Jedi on rank 1. Obviously any sort of extended duration would be very strong but the exact duration increase is a tweakable value, it could be 25% or 50% and the price could vary. This isn't saying a 5 point dart is now twice as strong, which is what I am getting from your reply and not what I would want being someone who likes playing Jedi. Especially when the price of purchasing Darts isn't specified or its additional ranks (if any were added, there doesn't even need to be secondary ranks, this is just something that could be added later if were ever deemed nessecary - again this is just possible ideas for what a secondary rank could include).

On your other point regarding the other classes, just because it may not be as aggressively impactful on the other classes as Jedi (while still negating their secondary resources, which on ARC and Hero are extremely useful) - then they shouldn't be a thing at all? Something doesn't have to be as useful vs everything to still be useful, which applies to a lot of mechanics in this game. Going back to the original point of the thread, having an additional tactical use - See a hero spamming dash, dart him and move in for the kill or use it from range as part of an assist are the primary reasons it makes sense for it to effect all resources.

The Tracking Dart lvl2 is unfair compared to the other team, because this is an imperial only ability... anyway, the idea isnt bad, however I'd prefer to cost more points, a team-wide wallhack for 5 points is too cheap.

While I agree it would be a strong ability I am not sure where you are getting 5 points from. I specifically wrote X (could be 5, could be 10 on both/either ranks), or ammo count could be the same as Poison. These are all tweakable things because you can't balance something in theory only, you've got to test these things. And again this is only a possible suggestion that could be applied to a secondary rank of tracking (if one were to be added - we don't need secondary ranks, the point is the room for expansion is there if secondary ranks were ever added while tying darts up to ammo).

Again my main problem is that ammo isn't an issue on most classes which is why I like the idea of Darts being restructured thus being tied into ammo.

 

[Vitéz]

My problem is not about the FP drain (however I dont support it either), I didnt even talked about the drain effect, my problem is that the Poison effect on different classes arent balanced, and your proposal could just make this balancing problem even bigger.

I didnt said Poison Dart shouldnt have a side effect for gunners too, I said that with your proposal it'd be still a waste to use a Poison Dart on a gunner like nowdays, unless of course if all Jedi is dead, so a new solution is required. This is why I suggested in a previous post to restore the twisted vision. Someone said there was an FPS bug with it... I have my opinion about this, but lets just say IMO that would be the only balanced solution for a new lvl2, because twisted vision is bad for every single class; but the blocked FP/Stamina/Dodge/etc regen is far worse for Jedi than to other classes...

The extended duration would be really bad only for Jedi. The main resource of the Jedi is the FP, the gunners main resource is not Stamina or Rage, its the ammo. Of course said gunner resources are useful for these classes, but useful isnt the same as vital. Anyway, the extended duration could have the same effect as Force Heal had before b18: if the Jedi can survive, the Jedi'd run back and "waste time" even longer than nowdays, just to reduce the HP loss. Why do you want to do that?

About your Dash example... lol, if you think the problem about Dash is the possibility for spamming, why isnt the Dash changed, instead of this? I mean spamming against BH is bad, lets give them an ability to prevent this, but spamming against Sold/Commander/Sith/Deka/Mando/SBD is acceptable? Seriously?

About the tracking dart: I get the 5 points from the actual gameplay, where the skill cost is 5 points... however I didnt say that you said it'd be 5 points, I said 5 points (the current value) would be bad and it would be great if that value would be more... there's a difference between what you think I said and what I actually said. And I didnt said your idea could be unbalanced, I said the missing team-WH on Republic side would be unbalanced. It means IMO it'd be good to give a boosted tracking darts to a Republic class like ARC Trooper.

You didnt even answered to my post, you answered to a post what you think I wrote, I dont understand why did you quote it.

 

[Fergus]

Hey Vitex, I don't think they should restore the twisted vision because of the camera bugs on it, like if I walk too much to front, my will invert, if I jump I'll lost my character... Can't poison just makes shooter reload slower?

 

[Vitéz]

As I said I have my opinion about this twisted vision "problem", but if the community says its better to not bring it back, I have to accept it. However I still cant see any idea what could be a proper disadvantage for gunners in this case... my problem with the slower reload, that most weapons have too big clip size, so this probably wouldnt even effect better players as badly as it should be + I dont see why should the weapon reload be slower if the player is poisoned... I mean regardless how the weapons are reloaded, even if the player does it manually (just the animation doesnt show it), why would the reload be slower, if everything else (running, being accurate, using abilities, you name it) works properly? :/

 

[Preston]

As I said I have my opinion about this twisted vision "problem", but if the community says its better to not bring it back, I have to accept it. However I still cant see any idea what could be a proper disadvantage for gunners in this case... my problem with the slower reload, that most weapons have too big clip size, so this probably wouldnt even effect better players as badly as it should be + I dont see why should the weapon reload be slower if the player is poisoned... I mean regardless how the weapons are reloaded, even if the player does it manually (just the animation doesnt show it), why would the reload be slower, if everything else (running, being accurate, using abilities, you name it) works properly? :/

Maybe just make the gunners shots be less accurate, like e11 level 2 or something idk

 

[Apex]

Poison was originally designed as a counter for Jedi. Make poison negate the recharge of certain abilities like stamina, dash, dodge, force regen, etc. as stated previously and that's good enough. There is no reason for anything else...

 

[Hexodious]

@Vitéz I think we are both missing each others points here.

Basically what I am getting at is what Apex wrote above. And ammo (and clip sizes) needs rebalancing across most weapons/classes so people actually have to think about investing (and reloads).

I should probably create its own clip/ammo thread rather than taking this one off topic.

 

[AgentGibbs]

I do not think darts should be affected by ammo unless you edit the point costs for other things. If you link darts to ammo you are essentially giving bhs 10 extra points to use elsewhere. These 10 points for instance could be dlt level 1, which to some may not seem like a big deal until you run into a bh with e11 3 dlt 1 ruptor all with ammo 3 on top of 3 darts. This would basically mean they never run out of ammo as you can use dlt burst fire for an entire 5 minute round and still not fully run out of ammo.