Open is finally dead.

[RogueWookiee]

I think we need to end this unfounded assumption that being good at playing a game makes you some how qualified to make good decisions about it.

oh but it does. the best players in the game have the greatest understanding of it's mechanics and therefore are more likely to make objectively the best gameplay balance decisions.


you've given noob shit players the keys to great influence over our gameplay changes in the beta team, and look where it got us.

 

[RogueWookiee]

open is dead and R20 killed it. you've sacrificed mb2s classic and trademark gamemode for a noob catering shit unbalanced spamfest that is inferior to FA.

oh yes i love getting railed by an armored ewok smaller than a fucking speck with a saber bypassing arrow that does like 40 dmg whilst getting fucked by a kowakian lizarrd with taunts that fcking damages you whilst honor dueling count dooku with yellow combos faster than cyan and blue combined and then jabbas fatass running around with a bardiche and 600 health and wook strength/fury.

 

[yle yatarn.]

open is dead and R20 killed it. you've sacrificed mb2s classic and trademark gamemode for a noob catering shit unbalanced spamfest that is inferior to FA.

oh yes i love getting railed by an armored ewok smaller than a fucking speck with a saber bypassing arrow that does like 40 dmg whilst getting fucked by a kowakian lizarrd with taunts that fcking damages you whilst honor dueling count dooku with yellow combos faster than cyan and blue combined and then jabbas fatass running around with a bardiche and 600 health and wook strength/fury.

Spot on with this post. The fact that the developers decided to completely change legends adding the open point system to specific classes is beyond stupid, because the whole point of legends is too be broken and unbalanced. It is better to just focus on open or FA as FA is far more balanced and is an overall better mode.

 

[Hessu]

I can indeed confirm that Karus' transformation from being a Sentinel member to what he is now is insane and I am proud of his achievement. I wish the same to all sentinel members. Being something Karus is now is surely a dream of every one of them.

 

[yle yatarn.]

@Hessu what the fuck is that?

 

[Leo]

@Hessu what the fuck is that?

 

[Bigpenisduelist]

I think we need to end this unfounded assumption that being good at playing a game makes you some how qualified to make good decisions about it. I dont think there is any link to understanding the mechanics of a system and the physical ability or attributes to manipulate that system. Having the mental facaulty to understand the system and suggest possible weak points and improvement points is important. Being good at playing the game certainly does not give you any organisational or management skills.

And then you wonder why the game is on it's last legs (for real this time)..... No, it's not the magical summer dip, it's not because of some legends troll conspiracy, it's because the project lead himself doesn't know what caused his game's downfall. Saying the game shouldn't be balanced by the best players because of 'lack of management skills' (????) is mental.. The only reason duel mode (and probably open for that matter) lost most its players is because the guy who was making and developing balance changes was both an inept duelist who didn't play the game and an inept coder (ignoring all feedback from most decent players didn't help either). I appreciate your open style of communication about the entire situation mate but if you keep on giving casual brainlets the authority of making patches for this rather competitive mod, no amount of communication will fix it.

 

[Hessu]

oh but it does. the best players in the game have the greatest understanding of it's mechanics and therefore are more likely to make objectively the best gameplay balance decisions.


you've given noob shit players the keys to great influence over our gameplay changes in the beta team, and look where it got us.

It doesn't. I've seen top players giving ideas that serve more themselves than the game as a whole.

 

[Hessu]

@Hessu what the fuck is that?

 

[RogueWookiee]

It doesn't. I've seen top players giving ideas that serve more themselves than the game as a whole.

dear hessu,



i am the superior duelist, therefore i am correct



sincerely, the superior duelist

 

[MaceMadunusus]

oh but it does. the best players in the game have the greatest understanding of it's mechanics and therefore are more likely to make objectively the best gameplay balance decisions.

Actually no it doesn't. It makes them REALLY good at finding problems, but research has shown that they may not give the best solutions. It takes someone with a different set of problem solving skills to take the feedback of those problems identified by good players and turn them into good solutions. Very few of the "best players" that have become game designers have been great at their jobs and often take a good amount of time having to learn and fuck up a bit first. They can get there but you're definitely not good at making balance decisions off the bat.

 

[Bigpenisduelist]

Actually no it doesn't. It makes them REALLY good at finding problems, but research has shown that they may not give the best solutions. It takes someone with a different set of problem solving skills to take the feedback of those problems identified by good players and turn them into good solutions. Very few of the "best players" that have become game designers have been great at their jobs and often take a good amount of time having to learn and fuck up a bit first. They can get there but you're definitely not good at making balance decisions off the bat.

compared to your current balance designer (or now past balance designer lol) who had made plenty of amazing decisions.

 

[n00b]

Actually no it doesn't. It makes them REALLY good at finding problems, but research has shown that they may not give the best solutions. It takes someone with a different set of problem solving skills to take the feedback of those problems identified by good players and turn them into good solutions. Very few of the "best players" that have become game designers have been great at their jobs and often take a good amount of time having to learn and fuck up a bit first. They can get there but you're definitely not good at making balance decisions off the bat.

So you’re saying you dont have to play, you Can just listen to people that do and are good and Then, with less understanding of the mechanics or why things are good or bad then balance the game… its fucking unreal Reading the copium of devs justifying their ego trip with some of the dumbest shit ever. Please, you have to be somewhat good at the game to give feedback, and even better to make balance changes. Do you think people who are good at a Trade irl indentify something and then ask someone with 0 knowledge about it or how to fix it?

Shit Will never change, massive egos listening to assmunchers While they piss themselves as soon as someone doesn’t put please at the end of their feedback. What a joke, honestly


(Edit: your pipes are leaking, so you ask a random guy about em, and lets him fix them. He’s actually equally if not better equipped to fix it than a plumber)

 

[Kokoro]

Spot on with this post. The fact that the developers decided to completely change legends adding the open point system to specific classes is beyond stupid, because the whole point of legends is too be broken and unbalanced. It is better to just focus on open or FA as FA is far more balanced and is an overall better mode.

Good point.

 

[Leo]

View attachment 8399

 

[MaceMadunusus]

compared to your current balance designer (or now past balance designer lol) who had made plenty of amazing decisions.

There has never been one singular balance designer or past one. Its been a bunch of cooks in the kitchen all messing with things without any kind of singular vision. Which is part of the damn problem.

I know for a fact that some of the balance changes I championed for, I also was the one that ended up reverting it once we found the real cause of the the problem. I correctly identified a symptom, but not what caused the actual problem and therefore couldn't come up with a proper solution. We all have mistakes and learn from them. I also know, that certain things like abilities I helped create for Mandalorian were under my own design goals slated to be paired with additions to the rebel team, which helped to counter balance some of the additions Mandalorian got. However, because of the team doing too many cooks in the kitchen stuff, it all got fucked and Mando got set in the "OP" position for far too long, when other things were supposed to be released with it or follow immediately after (because small team, cant release 5 class updates at once). But no we had to fucking change to a new set of things 4-5 months before R20.

It is one of the reasons I don't care for the team because they can't stay on a singular path for more than 2 fucking months. Then come bitching at you a year later about a class being broken. Yeah, no shit its broken because you didn't add the other things that were requested and designed to be paired with it.

So you’re saying you dont have to play, you Can just listen to people that do and are good and Then, with less understanding of the mechanics or why things are good or bad then balance the game… its fucking unreal Reading the copium of devs justifying their ego trip with some of the dumbest shit ever.

Can you please not put fucking words in my mouth and not be a dipshit for a second. I never fucking said a dev shouldn't play their own game. They should 100% play it, they just don't need to be the pros or no lifers. This is why its hard to have conversations with the community sometimes when you have to go through brain dead takes like this.

Check out 7:50 in this video for example. However, watch the whole video and maybe you'll understand.

 

[Medaroh]

I think we need to end this unfounded assumption that being good at playing a game makes you some how qualified to make good decisions about it. I dont think there is any link to understanding the mechanics of a system and the physical ability or attributes to manipulate that system. Having the mental facaulty to understand the system and suggest possible weak points and improvement points is important. Being good at playing the game certainly does not give you any organisational or management skills.

I'm glad you pointed this out.

Competitive players that break the system, or adapt to it and learn from it, that are the most efficient, is literally your driving force of tweaking mechanics. But hey! Who needs that resource anyways.

Glad we understand that logic doesn't apply to MB2, and hasn't for years.

Thanks Defiant for enlightening the community. I'm absolutely sure any progress from here is mainly input on bias and "what devy wanna work on today" instead of caring about any community members that have been playing the longest, and wanted to just enjoy the game again.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Competitive players that break the system, or adapt to it and learn from it, that are the most efficient, is literally your driving force of tweaking mechanics. But hey! Who needs that resource anyways.

Please watch the video I linked above, it may give you some insight into why Defiant and I are saying what we are saying.

 

[Defiant]

I'm glad you pointed this out.

Competitive players that break the system, or adapt to it and learn from it, that are the most efficient, is literally your driving force of tweaking mechanics. But hey! Who needs that resource anyways.

Glad we understand that logic doesn't apply to MB2, and hasn't for years.

Thanks Defiant for enlightening the community. I'm absolutely sure any progress from here is mainly input on bias and "what devy wanna work on today" instead of caring about any community members that have been playing the longest, and wanted to just enjoy the game again.

What you fail to understand is that the people breaking the system dont consider themselves to be breaking the system. As far as they are concerned the system allows it, therefor it is valid. They're not wrong. But they're not going to fix things that they dont consider to be a problem in the first place.

There is absolutely zero relationship between being able to play well and design well, both require a good knowledge of the mechanics and workings, that is where the similarities end.

This attitude that you are somehow a special little sausage and that you are owed something is frankly ridiculous. None of us are here because we dont care. Why on earth would I spend any of my at the moment quite limited free time working on this mod, communicating with you players and trying to make the team function more cohesively so that the attitude of some devs of just working on the stuff they want to work on ends if I didnt care profoundly about people having fun and enjoying themselves. Mistakes have been made and for that I can only appologise and try and set things right. As Mace has pointed out we need a dev team culture change as things have fallen away from how they used to work well in recent years into a kind of siloed attitude from some developers who think they can do it all just by listening to a few close people in game. Its hard to blame them completly as the community constantly pat them on the back for listening, untill, as tempest found out he gets skewered for listening to the wrong people and all of a sudden he's gone from hero to someone who cant play the game, cant communicate and cant code, and frankly it is insulting to developers and majority of the community. Tempest is not the only one being drawn into that trap, and frankly he deserves better.

It doesnt matter how good you think you are at playing the game, your opinion is no more valid than someone else who maybe isnt on the same level of execution as you as long as they understand the mechanics and the ethos behind the game as well as you then their opinion is exactly as good as anyone elses. Infact, to extend it, a player who shoots as well as your average storm trooper would have an opinion of more value to me if they understood how the game is supposed to work and had a good understanding of how we want the game to feel and play than someone who is good by accident - who doesnt understand the mechanics and doesnt view the game as a squad based objective game.

I'm a good guitar player. But i'm not a composer. There are many composers who cant play the instruments they compose for.

 

[Medaroh]

Please watch the video I linked above, it may give you some insight into why Defiant and I are saying what we are saying.

Mace,


I appreciate you providing insight into the business side and related your ideology on how developing functions.

3 key points i'll make and I will keep it brief:

1. Funding.

There is no such thing as MB2 funding.
You don't have a Patreon, you cannot do paid-for-content.
Therefore, any motivation for product management is out the window.
This is a passion project.

2. Community
You have 2 extremes.

-Players who play for years and stick with the community
-massive new player fall off

Your community is low as is, even over the past 6 years.
You have a reactive update patch for not only mechanics of your main game modes,
but for the more competitive side, you change Saber build frameworks like popcorn,
and expect the community to bounce back every time you change something on them.

This is a player feeding community. Without player drive and interest, and experienced players
leading the way on the games core functions, you just have a dead game.


3. Gameplay, Content, and this video you showed me

The current build R20 is now being populated only by duel servers, and legends mode.
once every blue moon on EU and NA side, there's one server with open.

Your game modes separate the community and its content, especially when mass changes
make the players reactive to changes, that literally flips the table on how its played.

You have added features that most older players would agree on, especially gunning sense, and duel sense, have affected the way people play significantly, and almost every time massive changes that lead to extremes, kill your player base.

You have a Dev that was the main saber focus, leave.

All this video is showing, is the competent nature of an actually marketable game, that plans on having a strong community basis, with funding and all the bells and whistles.

Without your players in this game, give or take 60 is a number im going with now, your game is dead.

Without the guidance of experienced players, your game is dead.

Without stable content and gameplay, you kill your player base.

"don't make your game boring"
You did. We've had empty promises leave our hands for years now, and now when passionate players, from a passion project mod, show their discontent, ask for reverting, ask why the hell all this shit happened in the first place, the answer is "From a business and community standpoint, players shouldn't govern the decisions the developers make in accordance with their content."

That only works when you have the numbers to back shit.

You're losing developers and players.

Open your ears.

Pretty much everyone thinks its a fucking joke.

All of the vets who have retired, and even vets that still play, only see it as disrespect, ignorance, and a waste of time.