Official 1.4.3 Feedback thread

[LoU]

We will be happy to hear some feedback from you. What have we done wrong/good and... WHY. We want you to share your feeling about new version, but remember Feedback doesn't mean to go rage mode. So keep conversation at least on decent level.

If you want to tell us how much you love us or hate us, then feel free to do it here:
https://community.moviebattles.org/forums/dev-req/



CHANGELOG (23-10-16)

Gameplay

• Pistol changes:
  • Basic pistol:
    • Change: Level 2 secondary fire is now a charged shot which ramps up from 26 damage to 48 damage in 5 seconds.
    • Change: Level 3 primary mode primary fire damage decreased from 48 to 40 (also affects FP drains).
      
    • Change: Level 3 primary mode secondary fire is now a charged shot which ramps up from 26 damage to 60 damage in 2.5 seconds, afterwards it no longer drains ammo nor increases damage until 5 seconds of charging where it auto-fires.
    • Change:Level 3 secondary mode secondary fire rapid shot burst now costs 4 ammo.
  • Westar pistol:
    • Change: Level 2 secondary fire charged shot ramps up from 28 damage to 53 damage in 5 seconds.
    • Change: Level 3 charged shots ramp up from 28 damage to 53 damage in 5 seconds for both pistols.
    • Change: FA-only: Akimbo pistols' base damage is now 40 instead of 48 and their charged shot ramps up from 28 damage to 80 damage.
• Dodge mechanics overhaul:
  • Change: Dodge is now an active ability manually triggered by holding class special 1.
    
  • Change: Costs 4/6/10.
  • Change: No cooldowns on activation/deactivation/reactivation.
  • Change: Runs on a separate resource of its own, Dodge Points, which are displayed below the botton right hud.
  • Change: While active, 50 DP drain per second, thus full bar in 2 seconds (if the player is in a state where he can dodge, otherwise no drain).
  • Change: Passive regeneration while not active nor poisoned, full bar in 15 seconds when running or jumping, 10 seconds otherwise.
  • Change: Basic DP cost levels 5, 10, 15, 25, 50, 75 for dodging projectiles.
  • Change: Dodge Level 1: base standing/crouching still costs 15, 25, 50 (legs, torso, neck/head).
  • Change: Dodge Level 2: standing/crouching has 1 level less worth of costs, walking has the same cost as above.
  • Change: Dodge Level 3: standing/crouching now has 2 levels less worth of costs, walking 1 level less, running/jumping same cost as 2 lines above.
  • Change: Sniper shots increase the DP cost level by 1 compared to all other projectiles.
  • Change: Can't dodge while scoping or poisoned.
  • Change: Starting from 400 distance, the closer the enemy is the costlier dodge becomes (linearly), until reaching 160 distance (80 for dodge level 3) where dodging is impossible (costs above 100 DP).
  • Change: Ability to move freely while dodging, ability to dodge again while already in a dodge animation (does not replay an animation but still drains DP), ability to attack freely while dodging.
• Dash changes:
  • Change: Dash Level 1 now costs 44 stamina (33 before).
  • Change: Dash Level 2 now costs 33 stamina (25 before).
• Quick Throw:
  • Change: Now assigned to new command /ability1.
• FA tweaks:
  • Change: Dexterity cooldown is now no longer activated when trying to roll/dive while attacking with a saber (in FA).
  • Change: Dash/Dodge can now be given to any class in FA.
  • Change: In FA, when a class has Saber Defense with a saber, or Stamina, the regeneration rate of BP and Stamina prevails over the regeneration rate of Dash; when a FA class has regenerating fuel, its regenerating rate prevails over all others (all of them share the same bar).
  • Change: In FA only, in order to prevent some ability conflicts, Dexterity and Dash are assigned to /ability1 (Dexterity is given priority over Dash at all times) whenever the class has access to flamethrower, wrist laser, saber-out melee moves or tracking darts.
  • Change: In FA only, saber-out melee moves (note: jumpkicks with saber-out are still always activated via class special 2), gunkicks and tracking darts are assigned to /ability2 whenever the class has access to flamethrower or wrist laser.
  • Change: In FA only, poison darts are assigned to /ability3 whenever the class has access to dodge, mandalorian rocket or stamina.

• Droideka/SBD tweaks:
  • Change: Droideka power management now regenerates 20 armor for 1 ammo and 2 ammo for 10 armor instead of 10 armor for 1 ammo and 1 ammo for 10 armor.
  • Change: Ion blobs no longer disable Droideka shields, launched pulse grenades now stun SBDs/Droidekas and disable shields of Droidekas for slightly longer, manually thrown pulse grenades now stun and disable shields of Droidekas for slightly longer.
  • Change: Droideka FP drains reduced by a 0.8x factor.
• General Jedi/Sith changes:
  • Change: Cyan/Purple/Staff/Dual styles are reworked into "specialist" styles, more powerful than the basic Blue/Yellow/Red. Fast Styles, Medium Styles and Strong Styles thus now all have the following cost: 8/8/6.
  • Change: Cyan style now has a synergy with Saber Deflect. Buying Saber Deflect with Cyan makes deflecting no longer require tapping attack but simply holding attack, with no FP cost. With Saber Deflect level 1, Cyan can deflect 1 shot every 750ms and cannot deflect at close range; level 2 can deflect 1 shot every 500ms and can deflect at close range; level 3 can deflect 1 shot every 250ms and can deflect at close range.
  • Change: Purple is now granted Q3. Q3 is the ability to automatically deflect projectiles while attacking without holding block. Q3 can be disabled for a swing by holding Class Special 1 during this swing. Q3 has good synergy with Saber Defense 3 because Saber Defense 3 reduces the extra FP drain on shots that are blocked while attacking (without Defense 3, the FP drain is doubled on these shots for both Q3 and swingblocks; with Defense 3, the FP drain is no longer doubled for swingblocks nor Q3 non-swingblocks).
  • Change: Duals now deal 360 damage per swing instead of 260. Duals no longer have an increased blocking arc.
  • Change: Staff now have a 270° blocking arc against projectiles (including thrown sabers) and 300° against saber swings.
  • Change: Cyan now has the same forward running animation as Staff, and Purple has the same forward running animation as Duals.
  • New: Nudge is now enabled by default on spawn and can be toggled on/off via /nudgetoggle.
  • New: Blocking animations are now triggered on saber/saber collisions.
  • Change: The duration of the flinch stagger is now dependent on the damage received.
  • Fix: MBlock deflecting will no longer drain FP when the deflect cooldown is still active.
    
  • FP drain and regeneration changes:
    • Change: 1.0x FP regen when unable to auto-block (saber off, knocked down, idle, etc.).
    • Change: 0.7x FP regen and 1.2x FP drains when able to auto-block but not holding altattack.
    • Change: 0.2x FP regen and 0.4x FP drains when able to auto-block and holding altattack.
    • Change: FP drains are capped at 40 when holding altattack and 80 when not holding altattack.
• Saber vs Saber changes:
  • Change: Non-PBs now result all the time in clash sound effects on a saber/saber collision, instead of alternating between bodyhit/clash sfx depending on non-PB/PB.
  • Change: Perfect Block (PB) no longer combo-breaks.
  • Change: Parries now drain BP equal to half the amount of a bodyhit.
  • New: Perfect Parry (Blue crosshair and BP bar indicators): done by matching the incoming swing (quadrant-wise) with the matching outgoing swing. Will negate parry BP drains.
  • Change: Manual Block (Mblock) now allows for combo-breaking vs swingblock and also deals 6 BP damage to the attacker when successful. Failing a Mblock (vs any swing) drains BP (4 vs Fast styles, 6 vs Medium styles (and Purple), and 8 vs Red).
  • New style-specific perks/features (these replace all previous ones):
    • Change: Blue style: Loses 1 ACC when PB'd except against Blue/Cyan. Drains 6 BP from attackers on PB (including against chained consecutive swings).
    • Change: Yellow style: Doesn't suffer from Mblock BP drain on failing.
    • Change: Red style: No BP drain from being Mblocked on a swingblock. Causes a stagger on the third consecutive bodyhit.
    • Change: Cyan style: Combo-breaks other styles on a perfect parry.
    • Change: Purple style: +1 ACC on PB.
    • Change: Dual style: Consecutive swings deal 0.75x damage instead of 0.5x.
    • Change: Staff style: Successfully timing and matching movement directions with a Mblock counts as a Pblock, even with incorrect camera aim. Staggers the opponent on a successful Mblock vs a swingblock.

Servers

• Change: SMOD mute now also blocks voice_cmd, gestures and name changes.

UI

• New: Added new ability keys (moviebattles) and nudge toggle (weapons) to controls menu.

Models

• New: Added Grand Admiral Thrawn to Commanders (thrawn/default) and Outcast's Tavion to Sith (tavion/default). Tweaked TFA Han's taunts.
  
• Change: Re-enabled a few alternate skins for existing Sith models (alora/default, darthmaul/default_robed).
  
• Fix: Swamptrooper model's footsteps are no longer silent.
• Fix: Updated seasonal hat positioning for model changes after v1.3.2.
• Fix: Some minor shader errors.

Official Maps
All (where applicable)

• Change: Re-enabled charge shot on FA classes with akimbo pistols.

mb2_cloudcity

• Fix: Blocked area allowing players to escape the map.
• Fix: Minor VIS adjustments to tunnel between Eastern Commons and South Lounge.

mb2_duel_cc

• New: Added carbonite freezing sequence. Activated by using one of the control panels.

mb2_deathstar

• Change: The FA has been redesigned to make every class useful instead of a few dominating ones and many weak classes. For example, C3PO, R2D2, and the prisoner have been buffed. The Imperial team has also been changed to have as many unique classes as Rebels.
  
• New: Two FA-specific features have been added for this FA. First, Force Power sound overwrites now exist (currently only available for Sense / Deadly Sight) and are used for C3PO. Second, a special classflag for making a class run faster while in melee was added for the Imperial Pilot.
• Fix: A shallow pit of death trigger allowed survival in rare circumstances.

mb2_duel_office

• Fix: Added clipping to portion of ceiling that may have made it possible to escape map.

mb2_jakku

• New: Original map by Plasma based on the village attack at the start of The Force Awakens.
• New: Capture Point Objective: The final objective on this map requires the attacking team to stand within the village square to capture it. The defending team may stop the capture by also standing within the capture point.

mb2_undeadstar

• New: Reimagined map by Plasma. Will our heroes manage to survive the horrors that await?

Unofficial Maps
All (where applicable)

• Change: Re-enabled charge shot on FA classes with akimbo pistols.

mb2_cmp_arena

• Change: Split soundset for C3PO / Battledroid hybrid models.
  
• Fix: Restored classic FA icons.

sm3_venom

• Fix: Spiderman and Venom now use the correct model.

ultimate_showdown

• Fix: Spiderman and Venom now use the correct model.
• Fix: Resolved some shader errors.

Changed Files ( Server downloads ) ( Linux OpenJK server lib ) ( ARM OpenJK build )

--MBII
031_MovieGameMappack.pk3
FAMBModels.pk3
MB_Effects.pk3
mb2_cmp_assets2.pk3
mb2_cmp_assets3.pk3
mb2_cloudcity.pk3
mb2_deathstar.pk3
mb2_duel_office.pk3
mb2_jakku.pk3
mb2_undeadstar.pk3
mb2_um_assets3.pk3
MBAssets2.pk3
MBAssets3.pk3
MBHilts.pk3
MBII.pk3
MBII_Mac.pk3
zz_MBModels2.pk3
cgamei386.so
jampgamei386.so
uii386.so

Changelog Legend
New - New feature or addition to the game.
Change - Changes to the game.
Fix - Bug fix.
Remove - Removed feature.
Feature - New feature name

 

[DaloLorn]

What the hell? So you think gunners should lose to jedi/sith just because you feel like it? If you provide some actual arguments, I will be happy to discuss this. But as it stands right now, it's just ridiculous.

In a 1v1, yes. Most, if not all gunner classes should absolutely lose against a Jedi of equal skill unless they get lucky (or the skill level is so low that neither side has a clue what they're doing).

A Sith, however, should be capable of defending those gunners against the Jedi with more than the prayers and wishful thinking they have right now - and of course, bringing enough gunners should certainly overwhelm the Jedi, but...

Right now, the situation is such that a Jedi can do very little to stop a Sith from charging at his team's gunners (except an all-in attack with a well-aimed speed lunge, but not everyone has speed 3), even if there are no hostile gunners present. Add hostile gunners, and the only way to avoid crippling injury and death is to just hunker down, hold block, and pray the Sith doesn't make a nigh-unstoppable (unless your gunners have either the skill or numbers to take him on their own) charge at your gunners and force you to expose yourself to blaster fire. (Make no mistake, the roles of Jedi and Sith are easily reversible here, with the caveat that Jedi have speed and can, if they're careful enough, negate the presence of Sith outright for the duration of their attack.)

"Okay then, send the gunners elsewhere and hold the line as long as you can," you might say - except even that no longer works in 1.4.3 because the Jedi has to be aggressive in order to survive an encounter with his Sith counterpart (or worse, counterparts); that same aggression dooms him to being shot to pieces by any half-competent gunner in the area. (Especially the sniper rifle you dismissed as being useless post-patch. I've done it with the M5, with less than half of the firepower of a real sniper, and I'd rank you above myself any day of the week.)

What EMP nerf? Unless the change is bugged or the changelog is wrong, EMPs got buffed so they can now disable deka shields. That ability was moved from ion to pulse. Ions got nerfed and pulses got buffed because ions were way more effective than pulses despite costing way less.

He might have misread - still, with EMPs almost never showing up compared to ion blasts... :/

I'm always very confused as to how people can think wook is OP. The only thing wook is great at is destroying sith, because sith don't have guns. It's a glass cannon, not a tank. It's a huge, slow target when it's got a gun out. Good aim shreds wooks, and snipers are particularly nasty since they can oneshot on a headshot (SBD and deka with shield up can't be oneshot by any gun, rebs completely lack solid tanks like imps have). Bowcaster 2 is really innaccurate unless you walk (which is absurdly slow as a wook and makes your large size even more of an easy target). Bowcaster 3 is a powerhouse and the charge shot may be a bit OP (Why does it do more damage than proj for 1-2 seconds of charge? ._.), but it requires you to give up either 100hp or immunity to force powers and knockdown. Even when a wook switches to melee, it's only as fast as a jedi but is still a bigger target and lacks jedi's portable cover.

Isn't that true of every class, though? It really ticks me off when a server devolves into 'Sniper Wars'.

I think the reality of Wookiees is somewhere in between - they have a few weaknesses, but they also have plenty of strengths to make up for them.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

What EMP nerf? Unless the change is bugged or the changelog is wrong, EMPs got buffed so they can now disable deka shields. That ability was moved from ion to pulse. Ions got nerfed and pulses got buffed because ions were way more effective than pulses despite costing way less.

Probably a bug then but I've tried vs Deka earlier today, throwing EMP nades does not disable the shield, it slows em down and deals like 150 shield damage but it does not disable it. Pretty much the same as before.

I'm always very confused as to how people can think wook is OP. The only thing wook is great at is destroying sith, because sith don't have guns. It's a glass cannon, not a tank. It's a huge, slow target when it's got a gun out.

The only criteria for that to be true is aim. A good wook can hit most of those shots and due to high rate of fire + high damage it's a rape cannon. Like, put it this way, if I'm playing DOTF why would I not play wook with a godcaster if I wanted to focus on winning every round?
Admittedly, a hero would be just as effective but in a different way, while the hero would be able to instagib people at range with the proj, the wook can tank and fire deadly as F shots while strafing.

More health than any other gunner (on rebs), more firepower (raw damage + rate of fire = firepower) than any other gunner bar deka and similar accuracy profiles to the E-11 & EE-3, not to mention that ungodly charged mode that literally acts as a 1shot cannon, I've seen people rush main on DOTF and get 4 - 5 kills just spamming godcaster shots into sniping spots and usual corners.

Good aim shreds wooks, and snipers are particularly nasty since they can oneshot on a headshot (SBD and deka with shield up can't be oneshot by any gun, rebs completely lack solid tanks like imps have).

Sure but the issue is that they are so tough with such a powerful ranged weapon, something needs to be toned down in order to prevent this from being ridiculously powerful the way it has been for like 6+ patches now, in terms of balance you can often look to what is called the pyramid of armour in real life terms, essentially think of it this way.

Firepower, Protection or Mobility. A class can only ever have two to a great level without being overpowered.
And yet wook has three at once (at a very good level, not just mediocre mix of all three), it's got easily the best firepower on the reb team with the best protection on rebs and better mobility than the fastest class on rebs (arc) unless that class uses an active ability which is linked to a stamina system so they cannot keep that up forever.

That being said though, snipers are cancer for everyone. If we ever implement class limits, I want a maximum of one sniper per 12 players on each team.

Bowcaster 2 is really innaccurate unless you walk (which is absurdly slow as a wook and makes your large size even more of an easy target).

Bowcaster 3 is a powerhouse and the charge shot may be a bit OP (Why does it do more damage than proj for 1-2 seconds of charge? ._.), but it requires you to give up either 100hp or immunity to force powers and knockdown.

Even when a wook switches to melee, it's only as fast as a jedi but is still a bigger target and lacks jedi's portable cover.

My issue is mostly with the godcaster simply because it deals so much death so quickly and so accurately, you're not meant to hold down the trigger with it but you are certainly able to fire on the move, especially if you tap walk and move unpredictably with crouching and whatnot thrown in to throw off enemy aim and get a stable platform. Not to mention that wook is tanky enough to absorb fire while he fires back...

In regards to the melee, eh, it's mostly just a minor issue of mine. Melee wook isn't really OP as much as it is just annoying to have the fucker come out from a corner and instagib you with that knockdown, there's no recovery or countering unless you're playing a saberist. If he gets close, you're dead because imps don't have an arc class

I do agree that SBD is one of the easiest classes in the game right now though. I'd like to see it get a complete overhaul at some point.

Amen to that.

Also agree on EMPs costing way too much. Around 6 pts per nade would be much more appropriate. Also, I've never understood why nades from the EMP launcher are weaker than just tossing the same EMP nade. It doesn't make much sense, and it makes the EMP launcher attachment even more unappealing than it already is. Why ever bother taking it when you can get the amazing M5 sniper and just toss better regular EMP nades? Sticky nades isn't enough of an upgrade for that sacrifice IMO.

Balance for the most part lol, having emp nades that deal full EMP damage and can be launched (unable to push launch nades IIRC) would be hilariously powerful, might be worth trying out though...

Nah but seriously I imagine it links back to the armour pyramid (or balance pyramid..) in that you can have mobility and durability (armour 100/dexterity 3 & stam 3) but lacking firepower, which is what you get when you take westar m5. Pistols is kind of an exception but you lack accurate firepower up close and at extreme range, deadzone on those things sucks arse lol.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Isn't that true of every class, though? It really ticks me off when a server devolves into 'Sniper Wars'.

I think the reality of Wookiees is somewhere in between - they have a few weaknesses, but they also have plenty of strengths to make up for them.

Yes, but wooks are particularly vulnerable due to their large size and (when using bowcaster) slow runspeed. I do think wooks are in an alright spot right now. I think snipers (just proj; I think ruptor/M5/EE-3 are fine) are way to easy to play. That's probably why servers so often devolve into a mix of sniper wars with some supporting jedi/sith spam, because it's so easy to survive behind a team and popsnipe targets with a 150 base dmg super high velocity gun.

Firepower, Protection or Mobility. A class can only ever have two without being overpowered.
And yet wook has three at once, it's got easily the best firepower on the reb team with the best protection on rebs and better mobility than the fastest class on rebs (arc) unless that class uses an active ability which is linked to a stamina system so they cannot keep that up forever.

My issue is mostly with the godcaster simply because it deals so much death so quickly and so accurately, you're not meant to hold down the trigger with it but you are certainly able to fire on the move, especially if you tap walk and move unpredictably with crouching and whatnot thrown in to throw off enemy aim and get a stable platform. Not to mention that wook is tanky enough to absorb fire while he fires back...

But wook doesn't have all 3 at the same time. He has 2 with bowcaster out (firepower and protection, although the protection isn't that great due to big target and lack of mobility, making him easy to hit). He has a different 2 (protection and mobility) with melee out. And that mobility increase when you swap off bowcaster only happens if you get strength 3 and either A: give up 100HP for bowcaster 3 (lose a significant portion of protection) or B: give up bowcaster 3 for 100HP (less accuracy, which practically means less firepower unless at close range). I'm pretty sure ARC without active stamina is still faster than wook without bowcaster out. If it's not, then IMO ARC without active stamina is too slow rather than wook being too fast. Hero is sonic the hedgehog compared to both anyway.

I think the tradeoffs that wooks can make are all pretty fair and balanced. The only thing I think needs to be toned down is the absurd damage on bowcaster 3 charge shot. I'd rather the charge shots have some unique mechanic (stagger on full charge hit, high knockback on hit, slow target on hit, etc.) than have higher damage than proj.

Balance for the most part lol, having emp nades that deal full EMP damage and can be launched (unable to push launch nades IIRC) would be hilariously powerful, might be worth trying out though...

They can be pushed (and deka discharged) before they've stuck to something. If they couldn't, then unpushable+sticky would definitely be a fair trade for less powerful.


After more than 10 years of playing this mod, standardized class limits are starting to sound really appealing honestly. But there's a lot of problems that come with class limits:

1. How is class switching handled? If there's no class switching, someone could just hog a class forever. Could lead to a lot of players quitting if they never get to play a popular class they like *cough*jedi/sith*cough*. Would there be a queue like FA? What class would you play while you wait x rounds or for that person to die? Everyone in a queue can't get swapped to soldier because soldier would have a class limit too. If soldier didn't have a class limit, rally/assemble spam would dominate. When you get through the queue and replace the person playing the class you want, what does that player get swapped to?
2. How would balance be handled? If class limits are only an optional server feature, balancing around the class limits and ignoring potential spam would likely leave any server not using them in chaos.
3. How many per class would be allowed? 1 per class? When does this automatically expand to 2 per class as more players join the server? 5v5, 6v6, full class 7v7? If servers are allowed to customize how many per class, this would also lead to potential balance chaos if game is designed around 1 per class.

tl;dr: Class swapping issues that need to be solved and potentially severe balance issues created if customization is allowed and servers aren't running what the game was balanced around.

 

[DaloLorn]

Yes, but wooks are particularly vulnerable due to their large size and (when using bowcaster) slow runspeed. I do think wooks are in an alright spot right now. I think snipers (just proj; I think ruptor/M5/EE-3 are fine) are way to easy to play. That's probably why servers so often devolve into a mix of sniper wars with some supporting jedi/sith spam, because it's so easy to survive behind a team and popsnipe targets with a 150 base dmg super high velocity gun.

I'm pretty sure disruptors can be used just as effectively, provided there's something to crouch behind. EE-3's a tad too strong for my liking, but I could agree with your estimate.

Glad I'm not the only one who disapproves of sniper spam. xD

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

But as said, things like deka, sbd and wook definitely need tweaking in some areas because right now, they are the easiest classes to play that reward low skill playstyles and spraying, deka especially is cheesy as fuck with a good player behind it as it can basically just roll around and one shot anyone, those AI lads have figured that out to a T and it's just frustrating to fight them, instead of being a fair fight it's just a one-sided fight where they roll around and practically insta-kill anyone they come across.

How is class switching handled? If there's no class switching, someone could just hog a class forever. Could lead to a lot of players quitting if they never get to play a popular class they like *cough*jedi/sith*cough*. Would there be a queue like FA? What class would you play while you wait x rounds or for that person to die? Everyone in a queue can't get swapped to soldier because soldier would have a class limit too. If soldier didn't have a class limit, rally/assemble spam would dominate. When you get through the queue and replace the person playing the class you want, what does that player get swapped to?

The only classes that really need limits are the snipers & saberists honestly, they're the only two classes that should lock down an area for most opposition classes. Add an option for people to select a secondary class (excluding snipers & saberists from secondary class list) in their settings menu for each team and then have that be the class they are sent to when they pick an occupied limited class.

Can't make the switch like FA though, if the criteria is until that person dies people will simply hide as saberist or run away from fights they should have committed to, I'd say instead what it should be is that playing a saberist/sniper gives you like 6 rounds as that class after which you are sent back to the secondary selected class and are unable to play the saberist/sniper for another 6 rounds unless no one else is playing that class or queued to play the class.

How would balance be handled? If class limits are only an optional server feature, balancing around the class limits and ignoring potential spam would likely leave any server not using them in chaos.

Should be an enforced limit similar to the 80pt loadout limit on class setups. People can tweak it on their server but will also run the risk of imbalance similar to what happens if you set loadout points higher than 80.

 

[Stassin]

Just going to clarify something: being "electrified" disables vehicle shields so for the duration they take hull damage. That counts for all lightning effects, force lightning, EMP grenades, ion blobs or lightning triggers from the map. This patch adds an exception in the case of ion blobs, they no longer disable the shields.

EMPs have always disabled shields even if experience seems to prove otherwise, it's simply that the duration of lightning effect on deka with pulses (particularly Westar M5-launched pulses) is so short that most often the effect wears off before the deka is shot. The duration is buffed a little in this patch so hitting the hull should be more noticeable now.

 

[Cake']

"Change: SMOD mute now also blocks voice_cmd"

Nice one, nice devs

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

In regards to arc stuff by the way.
Any chance of getting the ammo per shot reduced on the M5? 2 ammo per shot is such a drain on ammo, basically unplayable with westar m5 unless you take ammo 3 and even then... gets very low on ammo even in 6v6s.

 

[Lessen]

I really like Achilles's "Nerf strafing speed" idea and think it warrants further discussion or experimentation or something.

 

[Fraive]

Signed up just to say PLEASE change the cyan/purple running animations. I thought it was a bug at first because they look so terrible.

I have some problems with fp drain and cyan still being OP, but nothing tops the running animations to me!

Still appreciate all the hard work though.

 

[DaloLorn]

Might be interesting, if animator time is available, to make the cyan animation look like Dooku's movement animation from SWBF2 - after all, cyan has always screamed 'Makashi' in its swings and perks. (Except when it also screamed 'Ataru', like with the pre-1.4 gunner perk.)

Dunno about purple, though. Can't say that I see anything particularly wrong about it.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

In a 1v1, yes. Most, if not all gunner classes should absolutely lose against a Jedi of equal skill unless they get lucky (or the skill level is so low that neither side has a clue what they're doing).

This man, how do you justify THIS? WHY do gunners have to lose to saberists? What is even the point of playing gunner then? Might as well just go full jedi/sith team and destroy everything you come across. You can't just make 1 class stronger than everyone else for no reason.

Also, some of you guys here seem to complain a lot about sniping. Now, I fully understand where you are coming from, but really, a sniper only remains a problem as long as nobody bothers to focus on him. Your average sniper usually hides behind a corner and peeks to shoot once his rifle reloads. Just remember how long it takes for him to reload, and spam this corner with some blaster fire. I'm telling you guys, BH's and Hero's worst nightmare is a soldier who knows how to play.

 

[andrew]

i have to wonder what stassin/the team's end goal for jedi is going to be

was jedi gameplay of rc1 to rc3 such a terrible concept? im not even talking simply about the nerfs to the class, its also the buffs that baffle me. what do you guys want jedi to be? what direction are you trying to take them? why are clown builds like auto deflect being implemented while hurting the core gameplay of jedi with possible sense nerfs and these weird regen changes. is the goal to eventually make jedi either:

a. you have a really odd and niche clown build like auto deflect that excels excessively in certain areas
b. you're the teams resident loser whose sole job is to push grenades or anyone that advances forward

i dont particularly care very much about the ~overall strength~ of jedi or sith when it comes to balance. if there are 3 or 4 overpowered aspects of the class that the devs choose to champion and push on players at the cost of what i had considered core gameplay, the class is just going to be dead to me.

nerfs arent the problem, overall strength isnt the problem, its the weird concepts that are being forced that ruin muh class fantasy that make me want to play it in the first place. my conceptual idea of jedi and how well executed it was in past builds was what made jedi fun, not how relatively strong it was compared to gunners

have a clear idea of what you want jedi to be in the future, and build around that. stop trying to force stupid stuff onto the current class one at a time and then stepping back and going, "hmm, did it work this time?" with these weird incremental clown changes

 

[----Kas----]

duel servers = spam spam spam, congratulations devs

one more thing, instant counter doesn't work without pblock stopping combos feature, it works randomly, good job devs. Any attempt to counter ends with great bp loss. Nice..

EDIT: I actually like changes in open mode. Changes to force regeneration force jedi/sith to think and plan every step which is actually good, it's more demanding. And finally we can deflect more than one gunner at a time without running out of force too fast.

 

[DaloLorn]

This man, how do you justify THIS? WHY do gunners have to lose to saberists? What is even the point of playing gunner then? Might as well just go full jedi/sith team and destroy everything you come across. You can't just make 1 class stronger than everyone else for no reason.

Ideally, there should be a reason for gunners to be the main composition of a team - I don't know, some kind of scaling AP or BP buff/debuff when gunners are nearby or hitting you. But, right now the only role of a Jedi is to sit there, look threatening and push grenades, optionally using sense to provide advance warning of hostiles or catching gunners while they're not looking at you. (Not that anyone listens when you scream 'We're being flanked! Sith! Sith! We're being flanked! I need backup!' out at the top of your lungs... )

If the devs want Jedi to be grenade-cleaning, walking sensor arrays whose position must be known to the enemy at all times, then they're doing fine - but if they want them to be on the front lines, storming enemy positions or fiercely protecting their own against their Sith counterparts...

Also, some of you guys here seem to complain a lot about sniping. Now, I fully understand where you are coming from, but really, a sniper only remains a problem as long as nobody bothers to focus on him. Your average sniper usually hides behind a corner and peeks to shoot once his rifle reloads. Just remember how long it takes for him to reload, and spam this corner with some blaster fire. I'm telling you guys, BH's and Hero's worst nightmare is a soldier who knows how to play.

Your average sniper is also unfazed by the risk of personal injury because he's got a good chance of removing a person from the game (or at least respawning him). The only weapons that can properly uproot a sniper are lightsabers (not necessarily lethal, but it'll get his attention), droidekas, hostiles flanking him or other snipers - and this last one is why it's called 'Sniper Wars'.

 

[Stassin]

i have to wonder what stassin/the team's end goal for jedi is going to be

The current patch should have been an open beta, there is no question about that (but that requires more work and i'm not sure we could have done it).

What we want for jedi/sith ? I'm not going to speak for the whole dev team, but what i would like is to introduce in mb2 jedi gameplay some skill elements that it is currently devoid of, as much as possible without destroying the uniqueness/movielikeness of the class. Which means things like "sabers oneshot", "saber swings require little aim" are already impossible to tinker with, we may have already gone too far with wooks/sbds/dekas being able to tank swings or blue/cyan dealing only 120 dmg, it doesn't look very good.

People like to say, "jedi class is the hardest class in the game, start with soldier first", and it would be cool if that was actually true. Obviously that will never happen because some core elements of the class just won't allow it and they can't be removed without destroying the class, but there is still some room to make the class harder to play. So here are some things that are "easy" with jedi class, compared to most gunner classes:

1) Force Sense: as soon as level 1, it's on demand reveal of any enemy positions in 3D and even the direction they're facing (minus restrictions due to area portals), so with that you can basically know everything that's going on at all times. Compared to what gunners have access to (= no information at all except SBD radar) it's monstrously powerful especially when paired with jedi's mobility. You don't need to use game sense and map knowledge to guess where and how many enemies there are, you're just given the information almost freely. You're a melee class sure, if this was available to snipers it may be even more OP, but it's not. Look at SBD, it's a ranged class but the radar is not all that useful because the class is slow and can't capitalize on the information that much (if SBD sees in advance that he's going to be rushed by a swarm of enemies, there is little he can do about it because he's slower than them and can't jump to safety, but a jedi in most cases could, except if he's reached a dead-end on the map). Just talking about the lone-wolf side of force sense here, of course there are other problems such as being horrible for "competitive" play because it ruins strategy.

2) Auto-block: okay jedi is a melee class, that's awesome. So having auto-block of any projectile or saber swing, is not OP, it's only normal for the class, yes that's true. But that makes the class naturally extremely easy to play too. You don't have to worry about any attack in front of you, you just auto-block anything. There could be a sniper far away that you haven't noticed at all, as a gunner he'd kill you but as a jedi you just don't give a damn and auto-block.

3) FP regen: regenerating ammo, without a clip that needs reloading basically. In most situations your FP just regens automatically so you don't have to worry about the regen much. You do have to worry about the amount of FP you have though. But the point is, you have an infinite offensive/defensive resource, whereas gunners have limited tanking/damaging abilities because they tank using their HP (except deka...) and damage using their ammo. So you don't have to worry about running out of it during a round, all you need is some cover to regen and you're as good as new. Now, the main problem here is that it's far too easy to escape danger as jedi due to their mobility (but we're not going to change that are we, that would destroy the class) and due to FP regen making you safe as soon as you're no longer too close to an enemy gunner. Because as a gunner, hitting an evading jedi reliably becomes extremely difficult at mid-range and it's impossible with the current low running FP drains to prevent his escape especially if there is cover, and also because chasing a jedi is very risky since you can't afford to run too much (what if he force pulls you, then you're dead). So as jedi, there is little risk going close range against a lone gunner, you'll always be able to escape if you fail to kill him (except in open areas) as long as you didn't reach absolute 0 FP (because then he's able to run to catch you).

4) Saber swings don't require aim: jedi is a melee class so just like melee wook, its main offense doesn't require any aiming skill. Again this is just how the class works so it's not UP or OP, but the fact remains that it's very easy to play.




Anyways, i'd like to organize these thoughts better but i don't have time for it, so let me get to the goals:

Force sensing in the lore doesn't give the jedi precise information about the enemy, it just alerts him that there is an enemy (and potentially his emotional state or thoughts... because that's what the "Force" is about - except with droids but then you can still sense their "energy"...). Which is already good information compared to not knowing whether there is an enemy or not. And overall, their "connection to the Force" gives the jedi heightened perception. So changing Force Sense to match these concepts would actually be better for "movielikeness" than our current version of Force Sense. At the same time, it would leave alot more room for the jedi player to use more game sense and map knowledge in order to anticipate where enemies are and what strategies to plan. It would also give more room for enemies to manoeuver around jedi since their actions wouldn't be completely busted everytime they try something. So it would introduce alot more depth to the gameplay whenever jedi are present, instead of always being "jedi knows everything, gunners know nothing (or everything too if they have a jedi teammate telling them)".

The main change ideas for this are: 1) Just give a warning to the jedi when enemies are close or mid-range (instead of precise locations) 2) Give info only when enemies aren't being stealthy, i.e. attacking or using some ability or even just running.


Auto-blocking, FP regenerating and not requiring aim: this is all closely related and can be modified while keeping the gameplay very movielike, perhaps even more so than it's ever been in mb2. Jedi are supposed to rely on projectile deflections alot, they do in the lore. Not always but alot; especially against powerful/skilled enemies whom they can't just kill instantly. In mb2, deflect is kind of under-used, not very powerful, because at close range FP drains are too high and beating enemies with deflect takes too much time, because simply running up to the enemy gunner and swinging is easier, more rewarding and more effective overall (puts more pressure on the gunner too due to the jedi running instead of blocking), because gunners won't bother shooting you at mid-range once they know you're deflecting since they won't be able to finish you off because FP drains are too low and you can escape easily then, so they'd just be trading their HP against a small amount of FP (no risk for the jedi).

To favor deflecting, we need to make it so there is a point for gunners to try and shoot jedi when they are deflecting at mid-range, or for jedi to deflect at close range. Having higher running FP drains and lower blocking FP drains nerfs the potential for jedi to just run around gunners to scare them and then use swings or force powers to kill them, but at the same time buffs swingblocking at close range so that jedi have more chances to try swinging (but it's weaker due to less running thus easier to shoot), so it makes this saber swinging scenario less high risk/high reward for both the gunner and the jedi; it also makes the gameplay more skill requiring on the jedi side because he needs to time his blocks more and better (in which case it's rewarding and he can survive longer at close range) instead of just running all the time. It also makes deflect a much more viable option because the jedi can hold on alot longer while blocking. At the same time, having lower FP regen while blocking is completely necessary for this to work, because having both high regen and low FP drains would just making blocking invincible. Having low FP regen allows to make the FP drains extremely low without it being OP, thus making it possible to have those gameplay changes (less high risk/reward for swinging at close range for both gunner and jedi, and deflect is a viable option). At the same time, it fixes the OPness of jedi being able to escape very easily since running is more risky; they have to time blocking correctly in order to be able to do so. It also makes reasonable sense that jedi, when blocking, are "concentrating" to reduce damage and deflect projectiles (which requires Force usage) and thus they aren't resting when it comes to their connection to the Force. Now the changes for this in v1.4.3 are probably too extreme, but we'll still try going in that kind of direction. Having higher FP regen when not being able to auto-block (saber off for example) is the same idea, since the jedi isn't concentrating to defend aggression, and similarly, it adds some more depth for the class to be played more skilfully.



TLDR;
Jedi class mechanics aren't OP or UP but too easy to play (compared to most gunner classes), this can be partly addressed without destroying the movielikeness of the class by:
1) turning force sense into a "danger-sensing ability" (just giving info about whether enemies are around, depending on how stealthy the actions of these enemies are) instead of it being a high-tech radar giving precise information on demand.
2) requiring more decisive and skillful management of the FP resource through blocking/running (more risky if managed poorly but more rewarding if played well).
3) shifting the core gameplay from saber swinging to saber deflecting which requires aim (done together with 2)).

 

[StarWarsGeek]

3) shifting the core gameplay from saber swinging to saber deflecting which requires aim (done together with 2)).

One big problem with this is that the presence of jedi already forces gunners to walk to avoid knockdown by push/pull, and since they're walking they are a very easy target to aim at. Unless you make aiming deflect harder (not sure how this could be done) or nerf push/pull in some way (such as previously discussed overhauls on the forum, like keeping push vs explosives the same while requiring precise aim and/or a charge for knockdown) making jedi very deflect oriented would be bad IMO. A huge problem with deflect as it is now (or rather pre-1.4.3, obviously new drains with cyan is over the top) is that a gunner has no way to kill a deflect jedi without taking significant damage from his own (or his teammates) shots. Yes, gunners can manipulate where the shots land so the jedi has to make minor adjustments in his aim, but at close to mid range, those minor adjustments arent very significant. I disagree that deflect isn't very powerful, it's very easy to pick off low hp/shield classes or already wounded enemies, then retreat using jedi's high mobility to regen FP.

If deflect could be made more difficult to use (not timing based, shots travel too fast to make timing skill rather than luck based at close to mid range), then those would be excellent changes IMO. But without some pretty significant changes to deflect mechanics and aim, I think just points 1 and 2 together would go a long way in making jedi less easy to play.

 

[DaloLorn]

1) There is plenty of evidence for 'high-tech radar' as well. Let's also not forget that the evidence against it brings around superhuman reflexes of a greater degree than represented by MB2; are you suggesting that Sense starts acting like Dodge? (Amusingly, this would probably make me start using it more often.)

2) As a gunner, I wouldn't even move. That's part of the problem with snipers - they lock an area down tight and it takes that autoblocking Jedi you're so eagerly nerfing to break the lockdown. (I'm not even going to go into the implication that the sniper is helpless once you're out of sniping range.)

3*) It has been the case since as long as I remember that a Jedi trying to kill a gunner was an all-in attack. Either you failed and got killed, or you succeeded with optional injury to yourself. By the time it became obvious that a kill wasn't going to happen, retreat would almost universally be impossible.

* - High-skill opponents were marked for deflection? Are we watching the same movies here?

• B1 droids - slaughtered with impunity; mostly through telekinesis or lightsaber swings, though there are a few instances in AotC where some Jedi deflected into them instead.
• B2 droids - more or less the same thing.
• Droidekas - too much firepower to safely attack, shields prevent kill through deflection. Retreat is the only option.
• Jango Fett - sabered by autoblocking Jedi.
• Clone troopers - sabered by dodging or autoblocking Jedi.

RotJ isn't fresh enough in my memory, but I imagine Luke's greater focus on defense would be a result of his lack of training (in-universe) and less special effects (out-of-universe). Deflection is a supplemental technique, there's only one saber style that focuses on it instead of the simpler and more practical solution of throwing people and lightsabers around.

 

[andrew]

TLDR;
Jedi class mechanics aren't OP or UP but too easy to play (compared to most gunner classes), this can be partly addressed without destroying the movielikeness of the class by:
1) turning force sense into a "danger-sensing ability" (just giving info about whether enemies are around, depending on how stealthy the actions of these enemies are) instead of it being a high-tech radar giving precise information on demand.
2) requiring more decisive and skillful management of the FP resource through blocking/running (more risky if managed poorly but more rewarding if played well).
3) shifting the core gameplay from saber swinging to saber deflecting which requires aim (done together with 2)).

the only difficult gunner classes are, imo, sbd/deka. i dont think theres a world in which id agree with you that base jedi mechanics will ever make them harder to play than the same exact fps mechanics every single gamer is familiar with.

you're confusing "class mechanics" being easy with overall class difficulty. auto blocking and a regenerating pool of resources are easy in a sense, but are more or less just baseline mechanics that exist to provide a backdrop for other gameplay mechanics. yeah, of course sitting down main holding block is easy to do and not die and gunners cant do that, but thats just the mechanic that allows for a melee class to exist in an fps game. every single experienced gunner will kill jedi in a 1v1 something like 95% of the time, and the 5% of the time they do die is either through ambush or just bad aim (and then they blame themselves while the server laughs at them for dying). there are some exceptional gunner killing saberist out there, but thats a skillset that is extremely valuable and not often seen.

as far as shifting the gameplay to deflecting, i dont believe that will ever pan out nicely in mb2. i also dislike that you're comparing it to the movies and saying its movielike when deflecting will require a very high number of deflected shots to ever kill a single gunner, whereas in the movie its one hit kills. i understand the gameplay you're trying to promote and how it can be premature to dismiss it before its been fully implemented and ive had a chance to experience it, but i just dont see how that sort of gameplay will ever work out. unless the mechanics of deflect severely change.

as an aside to that, you noted that this patch should have been a beta. you're 100% correct, stassin. implementing changes to FP regen that seem to be part of a multi-step program to shift jedi gameplay towards deflect without actually implementing the rest of the steps is probably a mistake

 

[Stassin]

the only difficult gunner classes are, imo, sbd/deka. i dont think theres a world in which id agree with you that base jedi mechanics will ever make them harder to play than the same exact fps mechanics every single gamer is familiar with.

you're confusing "class mechanics" being easy with overall class difficulty. auto blocking and a regenerating pool of resources are easy in a sense, but are more or less just baseline mechanics that exist to provide a backdrop for other gameplay mechanics. yeah, of course sitting down main holding block is easy to do and not die and gunners cant do that, but thats just the mechanic that allows for a melee class to exist in an fps game. every single experienced gunner will kill jedi in a 1v1 something like 95% of the time, and the 5% of the time they do die is either through ambush or just bad aim (and then they blame themselves while the server laughs at them for dying). there are some exceptional gunner killing saberist out there, but thats a skillset that is extremely valuable and not often seen.

as far as shifting the gameplay to deflecting, i dont believe that will ever pan out nicely in mb2. i also dislike that you're comparing it to the movies and saying its movielike when deflecting will require a very high number of deflected shots to ever kill a single gunner, whereas in the movie its one hit kills. i understand the gameplay you're trying to promote and how it can be premature to dismiss it before its been fully implemented and ive had a chance to experience it, but i just dont see how that sort of gameplay will ever work out. unless the mechanics of deflect severely change.

as an aside to that, you noted that this patch should have been a beta. you're 100% correct, stassin. implementing changes to FP regen that seem to be part of a multi-step program to shift jedi gameplay towards deflect without actually implementing the rest of the steps is probably a mistake

So you're saying it's fine if an experienced gunner kills jedi 95% of the time using perfect aim and timing on dozens of shots, just like it's fine if an experienced jedi kills gunners using a single well-timed tap of force push/pull ?