Nerf Force Sense ?

[Stassin]

Okay since the popularity of the previous poll went off the charts, let me ask another question. If sense is not to be removed from open mode, then should it be nerfed ? Good ideas for that have been hanging around lately:
1) Make sense only show enemies who present a danger or aren't stealthy, i.e. are shooting/attacking or not walking or using some ability such as jetpack, for example.
2) Make sense only show a transparent warning sign on the radar, thus not showing precise enemy locations but only the fact that there are enemies nearby. Possibly with different warning sign sizes to represent whether they are closeby or far away.
3) Possibly have both of the above effects together, while at the same time making sense a passive ability that is on at all times.

These are just examples, the point is to nerf sense so as to allow some stealthiness around it, and so that it only gives the "danger" warning from the Force that jedi get in movies, instead of very precise locations like it's some high-tech radar.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I'm mostly a duelist, but in open mode I can be formidable, albeit I am a reckless player who doesn't work with his team. That being said, I don't need sense. Sense to me is a luxury, but a useful one, that is mostly used to find people that are hiding, and give your teammates valuable information. When I do find teammates that I actually feel like working with, I will grab sense 3, not for my sake, but for theirs. If the enemy team likes to force-whore, or hide in corners with Wooks/Snipers, I will get sense to counter them. I do not use sense in any other scenario, really, because it is not necessary.

Now, if you were to nerf sense, then you have to realize what sense is used for, and how it would be affected. Yes, some people use sense to set up ambushes, but those people are few and far between. If you are cautious as a gunner, you won't get ambushed. The biggest use that sense has, is giving information to your teammates, and COUNTERING ambushes. The fact of the matter is, if you nerf sense, you'll increase the viability of force-whoring, saber ambushing, Sniper hiding, and Wookiee camping.

My personal suggestion for Sense, would be this:

* * Sense 1
Activation Style: Held
FP Drain: 5/s
Description: Allows you to hear enemy footsteps/breathing for a significant distance through walls in a cone.

* * Sense 2
Activation Style: Held
FP Drain: 5/s
Description: Allows you to hear enemy footsteps/breathing at a significant distance through walls in a cone, you receive an alert if an enemy is within a short radius of you while this is held, attacking enemies are shown on the minimap.

* * Sense 3
Activation Style: Toggle
FP Drain: 30, stops FP Regen.
Description: Allows you to hear enemy footsteps/breathing at a significant distance in a radius, you receive an alert if an enemy is within a short radius of you while this is held, attacking enemies are shown on the minimap and through walls.

I believe that would make sense more skill based, and more of a tactical tool, than a preventive measure.

 

[Jiube]

I like the argumentation by Achilles.

And I feel like proposed changes are at least worth of a try along with the other suggested ideas.

 

[Hexodious]

I also like the direction of what Achilles proposed.

I play exclusively without sense and Jedi still feels very strong (map knowledge goes a long way I guess). I would be fine without sense in the game, but I can see sense working as a tool provided its not in the control of the Jedi.

Currently I find sense completely destroys the ability to Flank is what turns a lot of maps into "Camp the objective room with 1 or 2 entry points" especially on a 5v5 where the Jedi would just teamspeak all positions and the Flank is worthless and the strategy becomes a rush every time with both teams rotating A/B because they always know where each other are. I'd turn it into a passive aura of awareness, while still allowing ambushes and flanks.

Sense
Increases the Jedi's awareness of threats in the area. Passively showing threats on the radar.

Rank 1 - Threads include: Primary Attack/Alt Attack
Rank 2 - Threads include: Primary Attack/Alt Attack/Special Abilities (Including Force)/Mid Air Enemies/Reloading
Rank 3 - Threads include: Primary Attack/Alt Attack/Special Abilities (Including Force)/Mid Air Enemies/Reloading/Running

The above combined with the generally loud soundsets of characters makes it very easy to detect someone who isn't being very careful about being hidden.

This still lets sense be aware of enemies performing quick rotations but allows players to trick sense by moving very slowly (still/walk/crouch at rank 3) and being able to move straight into positions. It also doesn't replace checking corners and calling classes. It also encourages the speed up of engagements by not having the Jedi wait for full FP or pressing a button as this effect is always in play.

 

[AgentGibbs]

If you nerf sense after the current fp regen nerf that just went live you might as well remove jedi/sith as a class. Sense is what makes jedi/sith a support class.

 

[Subaru]

I mean, other than being able to push nades, shield teammates and block enemies, sure.

 

[Fang]

My 3rd post in god knows how long.
I feel that defeats the purpose of a 'support' class as such. At least for those who know how to actually play the class in a 'team based game'.

Also area portals would still been a issue even with such a implementation.

I'd also add that sense 1/2 is pretty weak and loud as it is for gunners to hear.
Sense 3 is the only worthwhile sense which even then, means I have to sacrifice jump 3 or force block 3 which means I'm gonna get pushed over when my force goes to 80fp under with a single push, small gunfire and so forth.

 

[AOD_Really Old Man]

So why is everyone voting to change something that doesn't need to be changed at all? Sense is vital to Jedi/Sith as a support class. You may as well, as Gibbs said, remove the whole class if this goes through. Seriously, get your heads out of your asses and work to build off of the existing features. Don't entertain every asinine call to nerf something just because people think it's unfair. Since when has sense ever been unfair? If this change goes through, then you will have destroyed the purpose of a support class entirely, making Jedi/Sith glorified grenade pushers with glowsticks.

Instead, maybe you all should work to fix the fucking saber system rather than "fix" every other goddamn part of the game.

 

[Insane]

It's fine how it is, and nerfing it wouldn't really make any sense gameplay wise. As of this build you have to give up quite a few points for sense 3 which limit's certain Jedi/Sith play styles already. If you were use achillias idea and add breathing/footsteps you would need to work around area portals and other technical problems.

 

[AgentGibbs]

I guess I will further explain my thoughts on sense with how I use it currently. Sense is 100% the most important force power I use when actually supporting my team. I use it to spot particularly dangerous enemies, such as hiding jedi and snipers. This allows me to get my team to either focus on the hiding jedi so they do not kill us all with a nice ambush, and it allows my snipers to be able to viably counter snipe the other team. These types of call outs are what makes the difference between an average support and a great support jedi/sith. I commonly run sense 3 which costs me 14 points, and when adding push, 1 saber style/defense, and jump 3 I am left with only the points to get fb 2 OR grab deflect 2 and fb 1. This is already me giving up a huge advantage with jedi/sith because without getting fb 3 you can be pushed, or rather have any force power used on you just for activating sense. Now not that I have had time to really get used to the new fp regen, but with this really really slow regen sense will have to be used EXTREMELY cautiously or risk getting over run by gunners because of your low fp. The ONLY thing that makes sense a little op is sense 3's ability to give out hp of the target, thinking of changing anything else with sense is just asking to turn jedi/sith into campers that look to pick off an enemy here or there because no one knows where they are hiding. Think about what it would be like to have a jedi/sith hiding with wall cling near the ceiling and dropping on top of the whole other team slaughtering them all.

 

[swagmaster]

heh, so sense fa only poll has evolved into 2.0, a nerfing of it, i would say for sense three, have achilles idea, but with base jka force sense screen overlay?

 

[Taimurodo]

Here's my issue with this. Honestly I think the reason why this subject got so much backlash was because of how it was presented; so when it was brought up people just immediately just said "NOPE", and only a few (or maybe half) actually agreed in some way and really did give some points as to why, while some of those who were against it just made themselves look childish and their arguments didn't really bring anything up; which saddens me A LOT, because I am one of those that would rather leave sense as it is, even though I FULL ON ADMIT I am biased because I only ever play as a saberist with level 2 sense. While I am not completely against change (I welcome it if it is a good and or necessary change), changing sense from what it is now is like changing a core function that really (again I am probably biased) didn't need be changed or tampered with in the first place. It's functions and mechanics are so deeply ingrained into saberists that use sense 2 or higher that any change to it would change their playstyle considerably, depending on how it's changed or altered.

Also considering the more recent changes that were made and (I think a lot of people here would agree, maybe not all but a good number) some of the recent saberist changes are a bit stupid and feels like taking one step forward and two steps back; With suddenly bringing this idea up didn't help matters at all. So what I am try to suggest here is that, before you go changing something that has been here since what I assume from the beginning, and from what I can tell no one really complained about, I believe you should first try to sort out current issues and get some things resolved first, otherwise with the mess that is 1.4.3 is now for saberist (again I don't speak for everyone, but I think a good number of saberist would agree), I believe that changing something like sense would be adding to the pile of problems present.

Now judging from the polls, this debate could go either way, but if it is going to go the way of alter sense then, it should be something discussed with the community and voted on and discussed thoroughly, not left to a small number of individuals. After reading some ideas and points made from "pro-change" some parts of me agree with what they say, and changes suggested to sense aren't that bad, but could provide some interesting mechanics; but all the while I am still against the whole thing. Unfortunately, I don't really have any good and actual reason as to why sense should remain as is, other than being something that I am used to and is ingrained into my saber builds and playstyle and also something that I don't think should be or needed to be changed in any way; however as I stated above, before going around suggesting something as big as this, the present issues should first be sorted before altering a core and well known mechanic.

I also wanted to make it clear that, while I haven't been playing for no longer than a year (Started in 1.3) I am not claiming that I have a full understanding of the game, nor do I claim to know where the game's direction should go, I do see that there are problems that need to be solved first. I am all for discussion, and heck, perhaps I can be convinced that a change in sense would be welcomed and/or needed, but for now I am against the idea, but I just need to be honest because while the individuals bring up good points I have nothing to offer but my own biased point of view, because I will still be voting no against this, but if it comes to pass and sense is changed, then as long it is discussed and thought out with the community and not a select few, and then tested for both functionality, and bugs, then I'll welcome it.


EDIT: As a footnote, I just wanted to slip in, that while in addition to what I stated above about playstyles, changing sense now is like changing somthing iconic about this game; An example would like changing how mandolorians jet packs work, from being able to fly in all directions for a limited time to only having a glorified force jump. Changing something iconic to this game is something that should be thought out thoroughly thought out, because not only do you have to consider the gameplay changes, but you also gotta think about the state of the community as well, because this game thrives on community support, and once that dies, this game is pretty much done. But everything I said above still stands, this is something that only now just came to mind.

 

[Flooven]

Why not just give Jedi and Sith a trait that costs around 8-10 points called "Force cloak"? I saw a couple people mention that Jedi and Sith would be able to hide their force presence, which I very much agree with, and this could be done without nerfing sense to be potentially useless.

Force cloak could be a passive ability, much like the SBD ones, that allows a Jedi to be hidden from sense if they have their saber turned off, or in melee.

I myself do enjoy hopping on a populated server and playing sneaky-beaky like, and giving up a few points in something else could definitely enhance this, so it would still be fair since I would have less points to spend, and people can still use sense as they did.

I very much agree that sense plays a big part in the whole "team play" aspect, but that doesn't mean the gunner should be able to give up any sense of caution that they would have if they didn't have someone that could see anyone through anywhere.

 

[Preston]

No. Do not nerf the only legit wall hack or else lots of plebs will use them. Pls

 

[RG4]

The most useful toy in the force whores pack that enables them to turn the tides if they know enemy location,HP, and movements?
A toy that helps you effectively pull of flanking with the intent not being noticed or enables you make better decisions.
Okay I guess we remove Jump,push,pull, and defense from jedi/sith.

 

[PissJug]

I voted no.

I don't need to tell you why.

 

[RG4]

Like in earnest this power has been in for god knows how long and the fact some people want it removed because they feel like it violates their ability to play. It's stupid useful. Level 1 and 2 is okay if you're going a normal up there and support type role, while 3 is mainly more in the area of sneaking about or getting accurate counts on the enemy rather than general locations.

Already is had a calling card that you cannot miss,
Level 1 is loud and very short only showing enemies on the minimap(which people use less than anything)
Level 2 is loud and longer but shows you where a hidden enemy might be and shows up on the mini map.
Level 3 is quiet, lasts for much longer gives you a red for enemy location in 3D models, and HP/Armor levels.

Level 3 is different because it doesn't continue the shimmering sound the other ones do, because it continues on and on til the duration has ended and everyone can hear it, which makes it good for being a front line Jedi because you're not going to be playing the surprise game if people can hear your callout. Level 3 lets you accurate plan your movements, enemy movement so you can inform your team of enemy HP or locations of where they might be is one the most useful of all force powers. Similar to jump 3. Jump 3 is a near needed ability just because it renders almost all fall damage moot unless it's a death barrier or double the distance of the catwalk in DOTF. It's a core power that isn't OP, but isn't UP either and requires zero change otherwise you're going to make it useless.

 

[Lessen]

@RG4 , Sense is absolutely a defining part of the game, so I absolutely acknowledge in my own arguments for removing Sense that doing so would redefine the game. To me, removing Sense boils down to "Are you interested in this fundamental change?" not "Are you interested in this particular nerf?", and most of the arguments against removing Sense boil down to "please do not fundamentally change the game," which is reasonable.

 

[Starushka]

It's about from what perspective you look at it. From competitive scene (5 vs 5 matches) removing sense is absolutely positive change. From pubs definetly not. It's okay to change/rework/nerf current sense but not remove. BUT i would definetly like an option for server owners to disable force sense for competitve purposes.

 

[RG4]

It's about from what perspective you look at it. From competitive scene (5 vs 5 matches) removing sense is absolutely positive change. From pubs definetly not. It's okay to change/rework/nerf current sense but not remove. BUT i would definetly like an option for server owners to disable force sense for competitve purposes.

This isn't OW or CSGO, the "competitive scene" in MB2 is a literal niche of 10-25 players.

 

[Subaru]

For competitive, you could make it part of the match rules not to use it.