Mind Trick

[Ronin']

There have been discussions in the Discord about Mind Trick's current state and what could be done to change it or make it better. So far there have been a lot of ideas, so much that @The Unguided encouraged me to make this post so that more people get a say on it. So far;

I've come up with the idea that Mind Trick should have an effect on weapons such as MT1 = forces the enemy to stop firing for a second or two, MT2 = forces the enemy to equip their pistol and MT3 = forces the enemy to go into melee (you don't drop your weapons, merely holster them as you're forced to pistol / melee).

@Duckshark had the smart idea of inverting player controls. MT1 = would just switch up wasd, MT 2 = would do that but also switch up-down aiming and (if possible) MT3 = would flip up-down and left-right aiming and wasd.

We were also in discussion with @Nub and others to either add (as a new neutral ability) or replace MT with "Battle Meditation" (if MT were to be replaced, Sith would get Grip / Lightning replaced with their own variant of BM). Battle Meditation in a nutshell would boost allies in a proximity to receive either +movement speed, +temporary shield, +accuracy (at high levels) and add for more synergy play for Jedi to assist their team. For example, if a Jedi were to use BM with Sense 3, nearby allies would be granted Sense 1 for a limited time.

Obviously these are just ideas and as such are up for debates and discussions on what everyone else thinks.

 

[Ronin']

Sheaconn is banned so I will make a comment on his behalf:

I don't like the weapon holstering idea its way to fucking op and leaves gunners completly defenceless. the inverting idea will just get on peoples nerves very quickly and it could be removed as fast as it was implemented. id be up for either keeping it as it is or the battle meditation idea i guess

I don't like the weapon holstering idea its way to fucking op and leaves gunners completly defenceless

My response to this is that Jedi would have to force focus enemies for this sheathing idea to work. Maybe at MT3 it could work without focus but only affect soldiers / ET's? Holstering a weapon wouldn't leave them completely defenceless either as holstering weapons is basically a 0.5s animation and you can reequip your weapons immediately using your scroll wheel or whatever keys your weapons are bound to. Will see what others think about the idea

 

[Threepwood]

A good start would've been to explain why you think MT needs a change or how these changes would make MT better.

As MT stands, it is comprehensive enough to allow versatile plays yet be countered by forceblock, tracking dart, also with abilities of SBD and deka. I do not see obstructions to classes that cannot by default counter MT a good idea, and in general it is not a good idea to make abilities that cannot be countered already (besides random shooting) even more annoying to those classes. One exception being BH's tracking dart that has the most consistent counter to MT.

 

[Weiss]

I feel like first two ideas would be extrelemly overpowered in any teamfigt. You woudld just rush in with your gunners, mt enemy team and they would be destroyed by yrs.

Unless you want it to be a focus/single target ability similar to how grip works, that could be actually pretty cool.

 

[Fluffy |>]

invert controls + single target if it is possible in engine

different levels would determine fp drain, single --> multiple target, and what specific controls are inverted

idk if this is actualy doable in mb2 but it seems like a cool alternative to current mindtrick which is either op in 1v1 or trash against teams

along the same lines other status effects we can look at are Sonic Mines and Nades as well as poison darts - each could have more unique effects and I know poison darts especially have been the target of a bit of discussion in the past

 

[SrsSpy]

bring back old mind trick with 8s invi

 

[Karus]

I think the inverted controls thing is cool. But I don't think it's necessary tbh.

 

[Bob-Billy]

Mindtrick 4 : Disorients the target , or force them to jump off cw

 

[Duckshark]

I went in-game and tested out a few gunner v jedi 1v1s with my inverted controls idea. What I found was that inverting the mouse up/down was already hard enough for level 3, and just mixing up WASD with regular aim is alright for level 1/2. If jedi could turn their saber on during the use of mindtrick it would offer possible counterplay from the gunner and allow mindtrick to be used as a team-supporting ability as well, but you would want to rely on teamwork/melee in order to reliably survive the duration of the aiming reversal effect (say like 5 seconds). Someone offered me some feedback on this breaking duel mode, so let's say you need force focus to use it on enemy jedi/sith.

 

[Jay Brando]

mindtrick is fine as it is but it costs too many points in the build creation to let it be as good in combat as any other jedi power. i really do love it and love using it but its pretty situational cuz of the 30fp cost for ~3.5 seconds of invis against anyone with low or no fp

the suggestions posted seem just gimmicky and worse, more annoying alternatives than invisibility

 

[Shadow-]

To be honest I believe mindtrick is fine as it is. Being someone who always vs Jedi and plays gunners sometimes , I think just being invisible to gunners is good enough as it is and makes Jedi have a sight advantage over gunners and its up to gunners to figure out where the Jedi might be going by shooting, using your ears to hear the ability go off or the foot steps, or the darts the bounty hunter uses.

The one problem I kinda have with it is that Jedi can mind trick thu closed doors or thin walls and use force speed and mindtrick at the same time to stomp gunners with the MT-Speed-Swing combo but most jedi I've seen mostly just use push and or pull on gunners.

 

[Snickeydoo]

Mindtrick from what I’m aware of aswell as most force powers can do so so much that you honestly could create a fun set of force sub abilities inside the primary ones (like deka’s chooseable perks for example.) which may cause jedi/sith to have too much diversity but THEN AGAIN the balance there can’t really be upset due to the point system which would make the real problem lie in simply having more things to focus on balance wise, I think it would just add more player choice in how they want to use their force powers but maybe it would overflow.

Personally I like mindtrick the way it is but It got me thinking about the future potential of the force system since if tempest patch goes through I’m pretty sure we’ll have much more diversity in what saber styles are used. And I think I’ve even seen devs say that the force builds are a little shaky in some spots ESPECIALLY force whore itself.

PS: I also at one point thought of battle meditation merely being a sub/branchoff of sense that you could choose but I don’t have any idea rn how accurate that would be or if its better off as its own new force power (Possibly coupled with a force power update in general?)

 

[ScruffMcGruff]

I think mindtrick should be a little cheaper or make the activation sound quieter so there would be a lower chance of gunners shooting everywhere after you activate it, that lets you sneak around more.

 

[asAconsumer]

Even Lvl. 1 Mind Trick is viable. Resources better be spent on reworking things that are not playable or op.

 

[Shadow-]

I think mindtrick should be a little cheaper or make the activation sound quieter so there would be a lower chance of gunners shooting everywhere after you activate it, that lets you sneak around more.

isnt that the balance for it

 

[SeV]

Like many things in MBII, the old version was better.

 

[Jay Brando]

Even Lvl. 1 Mind Trick is viable. Resources better be spent on reworking things that are not playable or op.

🤣 yeah bro 2 second invisibility for 50 FP is totally gonna get you some kills lmao if u take a single shot or use a single point of FP you can't instantly cast it again if u make a mistake. if i had to use mt 1 to fight gunners id probably develop schizophrenia from the stress

 

[NERO]

Imo one of the best things about MT is when you activate it, four people start shooting everywhere all of a sudden, causing so much noise that you can easily take out one or two of them or just sneak to a different spot because they can't hear your jump and footstep sounds. Especially when they're teenagers listening to metal or Doom music at full volume to ensure they also miss every flank involving 5 grenades and lots of blaster fire.

I think the 'new' MT is better. The old one lasted so long, while it also had a ridiculously large FP drain. It works better the way it is now, short duration, low cost so you can combine it with push or speed, requires skill to use but is still a very useful ability in creative hands.

As for new or alternate abilities presented by OP, I'll only say that abilities that make it more difficult to control your character are annoying in games in general and I'd rather avoid them as much as possible.