MB2's Map statement !

[Nero63]

Oh hii Mark ! Here is Nero,you'r probably favorite french baguette favour.
After talking a few in-game about maps with some player,i would try to create a sort of discussion arond MB2's map !

[ I want to say that my english is not very correct so maybe i will not success to express my own think]

Indeed,as you see i think, a few map as DOTF classic,Smuggler or Deathstar are ( sadly or not) overspam by people and i can understand because they are for the most medium maps (Smuggler we seeing you) and they are quite cool ,i will admit that i like to play it.
But i was Remembering 2017-2018 and in my own opinion, peoples were plAaying more "different" map during this time like Kamino,Scariff,Corellia etc..

Now my own and maybe naive question is : Does maps are in actual reworking or will get some changes soon ?
I maybe complain for nothing but this is too bad for me to limit my own gameplay with 3 maps.You could say easely that there is RTV,that i can probably joina serv were people play more "different" map but honestly as me,people had like to play in popular serv (Concerning OPEN).

I admit that i have no devs knowledge about anything so my request could sound quite hypocrit but i think that maps could be really rework to become more "attracive".
I know that new DOTF create some discussions and disapointement for a lot of people....And i know that devs using them own freetime to devs MB2 and i thank them for that, i still thinking that this mod is fucking great and i would like that more french frogs play it ahha


SO i would like to know people's opinion about aht,sorry if my english is very bad and i apologize for that.
Have a good day guys and see you on servers !

 

[Fletcher Time]

so maybe i will not success to express my own think

This had me dying for some reason.

If I recall correctly, more maps are being remastered. Don't quote me on that though.

It would be nice to freshen things up, but a lot of the maps people commonly play on are already very well done. Sometimes a remaster isn't always best though. New DOTF killed the map. I don't see any NA DOTF servers populated anymore, and if they are, it's always the classic version.

 

[Noob]

nothing wrong with killing dotf, now we have room for other maps. ill say having 2 or 3 more spammed maps is way better than just 24/7 dotf everything

 

[Threepwood]

Your English wasn't as uncomfortable to read as your weird post formatting.

 

[Bob-Billy]

and i would like that more french frogs play it ahha

No, we don't want this game to become a shelter house for the mentally retarded people.

SO i would like to know people's opinion about aht

You can ask your "friends" or "teammates" to vote for a specific map. Otherwise there is an very effective alternative to RTV called "Rotation".

sorry if my english is very bad and i apologize for that.

Apologies not accepted.

 

[Nero63]

No, we don't want this game to become a shelter house for the mentally retarded people.


You can ask your "friends" or "teammates" to vote for a specific map. Otherwise there is a very effective alternative to RTV called "Rotation".

Apologies not accepted.

Appreciate you'r honest answer from a french guy

 

[AaronAaron]

[ I want to say that my english is not very correct so maybe i will not success to express my own think]

Your think is on a good side with my think

 

[Lindsey]

Now my own and maybe naive question is : Does maps are in actual reworking or will get some changes soon ?

Deathstar is undergoing some small retrofits, I have Geonosis Canyons going through a major layout change to make the map a bit smaller and faster. Theed Streets (mb2_cmp_theedstreets not mb2_theed) is getting updates as well with the left side of the map removed and other areas adjusted.

Deathstar 2 is in rough work in progress paper layout form at the moment and will enter construction once Geo Canyons and Theed Streets are done:

 

[Nero63]

Deathstar is undergoing some small retrofits, I have Geonosis Canyons going through a major layout change to make the map a bit smaller and faster. Theed Streets (mb2_cmp_theedstreets not mb2_theed) is getting updates as well with the left side of the map removed and other areas adjusted.

Deathstar 2 is in rough work in progress paper layout form at the moment and will enter construction once Geo Canyons and Theed Streets are done:

Glad that some maps will change to (i hope) become more attractive for players

 

[Ixin]

@Lindsey Oh wow - good to hear you're still kicking it with the maps m8!

 

[SeV]

Oh wow - good to hear you're still kicking

Lol, yeah Dixin. Haven't seen your name in years.

 

[Victin Halcyon]

I had a comment about this that I've been meaning to share, actually. I just reinstalled the mod again for the first time since ~2013/2014. I played the game almost non-stop from b17 until I quit. I remember and miss dearly the original Cloud City map that was removed in b18 I think.

I understand from what my friend told me that there was some drama surrounding 24/7 DOTF in the last few years, so forgive me if I'm rehashing a tired discussion. It's also not my intention to denigrate anyone's hard work, especially map designers'.

One of the reasons I personally loved the DOTF 24/7 servers was not because I hate seeing map variety, but because DOTF (the "classic" version) I see in the game best accommodates the various play styles on offer in MB2.

MB2 has a bunch of really elegant and interlocking play styles and strategies on offer for more or less all the classes, which is a remarkable gameplay design achievement. I think one of MB2's greatest strengths is its asymmetrical yet relatively balanced class design that still feels pretty true to the Star Wars setting.

My contention is that DOTF classic best enabled all those classes and team compositions to shine, provided that the skill and communication were there. And the key is really in the hallway design of the main corridor.

DOTF's main corridor offers a nice, wide open, relatively clear but not cover-free artery where a good portion of the action happens. The main corridor is big enough to accommodate larger team battles, but not so large that playing smaller matches becomes a chore of searching for a long time to find your enemies. It gives enough room to allow saberists and gunners to work and support one another while still allowing for saberists to be punished if they get greedy or overextend themselves, and gunners to be punished if they get greedy or sloppy with their aim. You can truly play a team battle with an exciting mix of all the classes working in tandem.

The corridor and its design encourage class diversity. If you have too many saberists, you give up your long-range firepower. There are no ledges to push gunners off of and so gunners have the freedom to walk-shoot and blast down FP without worrying about being thrown off a ledge. If you have too many gunners, your team becomes vulnerable to the many, many grenades and thermal detonators and rockets which the corridor invites. The only play style which has an undue advantage on DOTF classic from my fuzzy memory is probably sniper, and I'm given to understand that the proj rifle got a nerf recently anyways (I don't know what this nerf is like so I can't comment on its effect on gameplay).

This absence of ledges in the corridor is part of what I think made DOTF such a draw for many in the community (and to the annoyance of the rest), and I think it's part of DOTF main corridor's best feature--corners that can be taken at wide angles. Corners with adequate space to take a wide angle through them allow smart gunners to round a corner in a situation that otherwise heavily favours the saberist. This is true both of the junction section outside the Imp spawn as well as the U-turn outside the Rebel spawn. Saber users still get to punish careless gunners who choose to take the corner tightly by popping out from cover at the last second and killing them.

Most importantly, all the other tight corners and ledges in the map from which gunners can be pushed off in the game are tied to the SECONDARY and optional objective. Obviously Jedi and Sith are at a greater advantage in those rooms, but gunners are not forced to go that way if they don't want to, and if they do want to, there's a satisfying risk/reward assessment to be made as to whether it's worth it to pursue/defend the secondary objective at the expense of being pushed off a ledge or being popped by a Jedi/Sith at a tight corner. If a gunner doesn't think the risk is worth it, they lose the benefit of the secondary objective but have a relatively safer battle to fight in the main corridor and approach to the throne room.

The only problematic and mandatory tight corner for gunners was the entrance to the throne room, and I'm given to understand that a balcony offering a second route into the throne room is now available, hopefully addressing this issue.

When I tried out 24/7 Death Star today (a map which I also played on a lot long ago), one thing I noticed right away was the plethora of mandatory tight corners and ledges for both teams. The presence of these elements, combined with the relative narrowness of the through-hallways between the hangars and on the lower level, means it's very difficult for gunners to step out and expose themselves against saber wielders, or to even support the saber wielders on their own team. The hallways are so tight that at some angles, it's difficult to try and shoot past even one Jedi/Sith in front of you at all without risking their life. And there are so many boxes and tight corners, which favour and encourage a "popping-out" play style on the part of the saberist against gunners. I think this encourages a drift towards saber-classes (and a few other niche classes with the appropriate tools) on Death Star, who are immune to or have ways of solving the issues of tight corners and ledges.

That's more or less my take on DOTF's dominance in MB2 (or at least one-time dominance) and why I like it so much. I really don't mean to kick the hornet's nest here or stir up any bad feelings. It's worth noting, of course, that despite my criticisms, Death Star is clearly popular. I don't know why, except that maybe the saber classes are naturally popular, and so Death Star appeals to a wide swath of the community. But I think Death Star's problem, as I see it, is probably found more often than not on most MB2 maps (mandatory tight corners and ledges).

Of course, I don't want for all maps to play identically, nor do I think the dominance of one map over all others healthy for the game, so hopefully this comment is received in the spirit it is given--out of appreciation for the mod and map makers, and a desire to see more maps enticing players to pick them from a gameplay perspective.

 

[Alkatjo]

To add on to what Victin Halcyon said. I feel like MB2 has one of the best class dynamics that I believe to rival other sort of open arena games like TF2 or TFC (Despite the dangerously obscure decision about healer/health distribution within class kits). Dotfc was MB2's perfect map. It was perfect for gunners, it was perfect for saberists, it was perfect for gloans, wookies, dekas, it was there and we loved it. There's a reason it was THE definitive map that everyone played. Both teams met each other halfway fighting off one another. Multiple routes made it easy to flank unsuspecting teams and winning by objective wasn't that hard either. Can't access main door? Go through side/window, etc. Dotfc had charm to it that other maps miss and it allowed for ALL classes to work in tandem with each other. Other maps save for a few barely meet the "fun factor". Killing Dotfc was a wise decision, because it allowed other maps to shine, but the current open maps fall short of subpar. No disrespect towards their creators, but certain maps in particular do NOT follow the combat flow like classic dotf.

Deathstar, everyone's favorite "game night with the boys" map. Featured on many servers, some servers dedicated to it entirely. There's always been this exciting dynamic with Deathstar, but there are major problems associated with class balance on this map in particular. Regarding side it's a first come first serve scenario. If Rebels aren't fast enough at the door then imps always arrive first just because of the spawns and the momentum used by the falcon to get out of the hanger faster (sith and mando momentum tricks). The bridge section is well designed and thought out but it leaves more to be desired for gunners. When gunning me and my fellow troopers are always tucked away behind the door/saberists near the lifts because going to take pot shots out of door is borderline suicidal. It doesn't match the flow that other maps have. Gunners are only expressive when all the saberists have died or when they enter the falcon hanger. That's when gunners can actually do their job without saberists getting in the way, likewise saberists are constantly at risk of tk and unintentional damage because of the cramped corridors. This is nothing short of the map being too cramped (with a slight exception of gunners with a jumpy trigger finger). I know it's following the format of the movie, but there are definitely parts of Deathstar that could be tweaked a bit to give other classes room to shine ALONG saberists.

Commtower. This is a good map. Branching paths, sneaky corridors, annoying dish that kills you when you nudge it. An OBJ that isn't too hard to pull off, and a nice aesthetic. The bridge room is a good example of class balance and flow. Plenty of cover with the door, sides, and pillars. Not too open to allow grenade spam and jumpy saberists and not too closed to make things claustrophobic.

Lunarbase, Really good after the minor redesign. Flows really well. Easily behind DOTFC.

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that these maps have a rhythm to them.

 

[FrenzY]

I had a comment about this that I've been meaning to share, actually. I just reinstalled the mod again for the first time since ~2013/2014. I played the game almost non-stop from b17 until I quit. I remember and miss dearly the original Cloud City map that was removed in b18 I think.

I understand from what my friend told me that there was some drama surrounding 24/7 DOTF in the last few years, so forgive me if I'm rehashing a tired discussion. It's also not my intention to denigrate anyone's hard work, especially map designers'.

One of the reasons I personally loved the DOTF 24/7 servers was not because I hate seeing map variety, but because DOTF (the "classic" version) I see in the game best accommodates the various play styles on offer in MB2.

MB2 has a bunch of really elegant and interlocking play styles and strategies on offer for more or less all the classes, which is a remarkable gameplay design achievement. I think one of MB2's greatest strengths is its asymmetrical yet relatively balanced class design that still feels pretty true to the Star Wars setting.

My contention is that DOTF classic best enabled all those classes and team compositions to shine, provided that the skill and communication were there. And the key is really in the hallway design of the main corridor.

DOTF's main corridor offers a nice, wide open, relatively clear but not cover-free artery where a good portion of the action happens. The main corridor is big enough to accommodate larger team battles, but not so large that playing smaller matches becomes a chore of searching for a long time to find your enemies. It gives enough room to allow saberists and gunners to work and support one another while still allowing for saberists to be punished if they get greedy or overextend themselves, and gunners to be punished if they get greedy or sloppy with their aim. You can truly play a team battle with an exciting mix of all the classes working in tandem.

The corridor and its design encourage class diversity. If you have too many saberists, you give up your long-range firepower. There are no ledges to push gunners off of and so gunners have the freedom to walk-shoot and blast down FP without worrying about being thrown off a ledge. If you have too many gunners, your team becomes vulnerable to the many, many grenades and thermal detonators and rockets which the corridor invites. The only play style which has an undue advantage on DOTF classic from my fuzzy memory is probably sniper, and I'm given to understand that the proj rifle got a nerf recently anyways (I don't know what this nerf is like so I can't comment on its effect on gameplay).

This absence of ledges in the corridor is part of what I think made DOTF such a draw for many in the community (and to the annoyance of the rest), and I think it's part of DOTF main corridor's best feature--corners that can be taken at wide angles. Corners with adequate space to take a wide angle through them allow smart gunners to round a corner in a situation that otherwise heavily favours the saberist. This is true both of the junction section outside the Imp spawn as well as the U-turn outside the Rebel spawn. Saber users still get to punish careless gunners who choose to take the corner tightly by popping out from cover at the last second and killing them.

Most importantly, all the other tight corners and ledges in the map from which gunners can be pushed off in the game are tied to the SECONDARY and optional objective. Obviously Jedi and Sith are at a greater advantage in those rooms, but gunners are not forced to go that way if they don't want to, and if they do want to, there's a satisfying risk/reward assessment to be made as to whether it's worth it to pursue/defend the secondary objective at the expense of being pushed off a ledge or being popped by a Jedi/Sith at a tight corner. If a gunner doesn't think the risk is worth it, they lose the benefit of the secondary objective but have a relatively safer battle to fight in the main corridor and approach to the throne room.

The only problematic and mandatory tight corner for gunners was the entrance to the throne room, and I'm given to understand that a balcony offering a second route into the throne room is now available, hopefully addressing this issue.

When I tried out 24/7 Death Star today (a map which I also played on a lot long ago), one thing I noticed right away was the plethora of mandatory tight corners and ledges for both teams. The presence of these elements, combined with the relative narrowness of the through-hallways between the hangars and on the lower level, means it's very difficult for gunners to step out and expose themselves against saber wielders, or to even support the saber wielders on their own team. The hallways are so tight that at some angles, it's difficult to try and shoot past even one Jedi/Sith in front of you at all without risking their life. And there are so many boxes and tight corners, which favour and encourage a "popping-out" play style on the part of the saberist against gunners. I think this encourages a drift towards saber-classes (and a few other niche classes with the appropriate tools) on Death Star, who are immune to or have ways of solving the issues of tight corners and ledges.

That's more or less my take on DOTF's dominance in MB2 (or at least one-time dominance) and why I like it so much. I really don't mean to kick the hornet's nest here or stir up any bad feelings. It's worth noting, of course, that despite my criticisms, Death Star is clearly popular. I don't know why, except that maybe the saber classes are naturally popular, and so Death Star appeals to a wide swath of the community. But I think Death Star's problem, as I see it, is probably found more often than not on most MB2 maps (mandatory tight corners and ledges).

Of course, I don't want for all maps to play identically, nor do I think the dominance of one map over all others healthy for the game, so hopefully this comment is received in the spirit it is given--out of appreciation for the mod and map makers, and a desire to see more maps enticing players to pick them from a gameplay perspective.

Vic! So good to see and hear from you! Happy to see you back, I hope you stick around. We have a few changes coming to Deathstar, Corellia and more on their way. ;]

 

[qwerty]

DOTF (the "classic" version) I see in the game best accommodates the various play styles on offer in MB2.

this is the wrongerest opinion i've heard in a while

 

[Fluffy |>]

good ol' long corridor with no cover really brings out the best in mb2 lol

 

[Threepwood]

Nah I prefer the last stand throne room to where even more long corridors with no cover lead to. It's almost as if the new dotf addresses these isssues..

 

[NERO]

Here's another Nero. Problem between RTV and rotation is, that if a rotation swaps to a map most people don't want to play, it'll empty the server quickly. RTV lets people choose by voting, but can also leave the minority unsatisfied. The mentality about maps in general can be pretty rotten. People vote to go on dotfc when there's already one or two populated servers running it, and have prejudices towards certain maps.

I've always been pretty much against high-pop Smuggler but I have to admit that after a match that degraded into imps (my team) camping the datapad with rebels trying to break though, seeing how creative teamwork got in both teams in that scenario made me kind of appreciate Smuggler with high population. Though I do still prefer it low-pop. Either way, based off this experience I wonder if people were more open to a wider variety of maps if they figured out more strategies to use in them?

 

[Victin Halcyon]

I didn't state my case clearly enough. It's not the fact of a corridor that makes DOTF classic so successful as a map so much as certain elements of map layout design which the corridor and its surrounding rooms happen to exemplify. To restate, these are:

1) Spaces large enough to accommodate large teams of various class compositions, but small enough to offer structured and tight gameplay.

2) The absence of mandatory (in the sense of--necessary to traverse to reach or defend a final objective) ledges which heavily discourage, as another poster elegantly put it, "gunner expression" in the face of force users.

3) The presence of mandatory corners that are wide enough to be taken at a good angle by smart gunners but small enough for saberists to punish careless gunners.

These elements are part of what make DOTF classic so satisfying for Jedi, Sith and gunners alike, and can be rearranged into any number of other layouts (which are not corridors!).

There are other aspects of DOTF classic that make it very exciting for team play and map control, especially at a high level of play, but these three elements are at the core of all the rest. I look forward to trying out the redesigned Lunar Base and new (to me) Smuggler map, and to seeing the forthcoming changes to the rest.

 

[Nero63]

Here's another Nero. Problem between RTV and rotation is, that if a rotation swaps to a map most people don't want to play, it'll empty the server quickly. RTV lets people choose by voting, but can also leave the minority unsatisfied. The mentality about maps in general can be pretty rotten. People vote to go on dotfc when there's already one or two populated servers running it, and have prejudices towards certain maps.

I've always been pretty much against high-pop Smuggler but I have to admit that after a match that degraded into imps (my team) camping the datapad with rebels trying to break though, seeing how creative teamwork got in both teams in that scenario made me kind of appreciate Smuggler with high population. Though I do still prefer it low-pop. Either way, based off this experience I wonder if people were more open to a wider variety of maps if they figured out more strategies to use in them?

Appreciate you'r Answer Nero Clone