Kamino fix

[qwerty]

Kamino is awful for public servers. Rebels run up main, they get to the stairway faster than imps can leave their spawn. Imps are now forced to go through a tiny door that fits 1 person at a time while the defending team is shooting them from multiple angles & with high ground advantage. Same thing happens in the lift room on the imps' left hand side. Rotating to the side corridor takes a good 45 seconds to a minute of running depending on your class due to the sheer size of the spawn area which is just so stupid it hurts my brain to think about.

1. Move imp spawn to the bottom of the staircase. Chokepoint at main eliminated, now the teams meet around the top of the staircase/entrace to obj and science lab junction which is just so much better in every way to play in. Alternatively move rebel spawn further back so that they don't beat the imperials to the top of the stairs. The former is preferable just to shorten the time it takes for both teams to meet.

2. Unlock the breezeway by default. This allows the attacking team to rotate to the side corridor in a much shorter time, allows the defending team to flank them when they please without needing to run for 2 minutes, it's a great connecting area that is almost never used because the control panel that unlocks it is in such a defensible position and at the same time not usable by the defenders. I would also advise adding some cover (boxes or maybe something more imaginative) to the breezeway since right now it's not the best place to fight in because it's just completely empty and quite long.

3. Since after the changes above the outside area is almost completely useless I would advise removing it completely to avoid trolling and timewasting. Alternatively make it easier to run through, make the catwalks more direct between main and side so it doesn't take 2 minutes to run through there if you do choose or are forced to do it because the breezeway is inaccessible for whatever reason.

Point 1 and 2 are very simple changes that would improve the map 1000 fold. Please please please make it happen, kamino has some cool areas to fight in, with round cover and interesting shapes and nooks and crannies, good textures for visibility, cool visuals, it just fucking sucks right now because it's so defender biased it's literally unplayable unless imperials have 10 times better players (which also never happens because all the good players know not to join imps unless you like getting shot in the head from above for 5 minutes).

 

[Crusader]

Qwerty makes good points and without disparaging the efforts of the map's creator I would like to add some observations about how this map plays out in public.

Kamino can be divided into two playable areas the 'outside' and 'inside'. Presently, a lot of the issues are rooted in the Imperial side, specifically the outside. On this map the Rebels are defending an objective in a small room with ample cover and two points of entry. Relative to other maps, Kamino's objective is fairly easily defensible. Naturally, there is no incentive to leave this area. Hence, there is no reason at all for the Rebels to enter the outside. The Imperials, attacking on the other hand, MUST traverse the entirety of the outside to engage in the 'playable' portion of the map (where they will be able encounter Rebels). Leading up to this point and depending on your classes' mobility and spawn point, the Imperial's must conquer the mindless task of holding +forward down for about 10-20 seconds to approach Rebels from the most direct route to reach the start of the playable area. The alternative route takes exceptionally longer for classes without mobility. The outside portion of the map is massive, meaningless to the attackers, a chore for the Imperials to move through and holds no strategic value.

When the Imperials approach the inside portion of the map from the most direct route they are faced with two choices: take the elevator to the side passage, or go up the hall. Qwerty has already pointed out that these zones are difficult for Imperials to attack. If the Imperials fail to gain any impetus with their assault they will be forced back, standing awkwardly outside the door leading to the hall. This door requires only one Jedi to guard. It is a narrow passage that must be entered virtually single-file and they are able to swing through the walls and kill anyone without a lightsaber. The angle at which the hall presents itself allows Rebel snipers to shoot at the Imperials approaching the door whilst the Imperials are unable to see the sniper at all. Explosives can be thrown down at leisure with the viewing angle making it difficult for Sith to see exactly where everything is coming from. On top of that, I believe that Rebel's can hack a terminal to open a 'grid' above the Imperial's first footing in the hall and shoot down at them. Surrounding the Imperials is a massive fall-to-death-zone. Any gunner loitering around this point can be killed with push. Most gunners who cannot breach the hall will end up here. If it is a multi-life class they must make the same long trek back to the door only to be stuck in the same position. The elevator is no better. The entrance is small, can be guarded by one Jedi and any Rebel sniper needs only aim at the door. If you try retreat from a Jedi as a gunner on the elevator you can be pushed (stepping off the elevator) and presumably killed. If Rebels also win this point then any Imperials hanging around the door can be pushed off the edge into the fall-to-death-zone.

Considering only this entrance, how do Imperial players respond? They don't like all the running to fight a down-hill battle. The outside area is massive and snipers tend to suit long range combat better. They pick a class with a sniper and hide in some obscure corner of the map for 5 minutes. Some Rebels will oblige and go on the hunt, in which case gunners will get picked off as they emerge from the entrance. Jedi eventually catch up to the Imperial snipers and push them off the edge. By right, Rebels do not have to leave their objective and sometimes both sides are waiting for the whole duration of the round. There will always be a new player picking soldier who gets lost in the outside part of the map whilst every Imperial player is dead. He cannot be convinced to take his own life.

The other entrance which takes considerably longer to reach can be rushed with Mandalorian and Deka. The Rebels always have enough time to set up a foothold. Again, the narrowness of this corner make it easy for Rebels to defend. Deka dies easily and the Mandalorian probably won't do much better from this position.

When Imperials can make it into the map, it is quite enjoyable to play. It is just very frustrating and sometimes impossible to reach this point. I think Qwerty's suggestions will alleviate all of these problems and improve the gameplay if at the cost of scenery.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I'd be interested in seeing the map be split in two. 90% of gameplay is already dedicated to the indoors, so seeing the map scaled down to just the indoor areas could make for much more immediate action.

We could have one map dedicated for the outside area. It's so cool and unique. The weather effects and raging sea really get me pumped. It's always fun to fight there, but it's a rare treat right now.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I would personally like to do a much larger, pass over Kamino in the future. Creating multiple maps for multiple game modes for it in a relatively short period of time. All using a bunch of additional assets that are being created for the tutorials and cutscenes.

So at least for me, this will have to wait a while for me to get to it, unless someone else wants to take a stab at it.

 

[mage!]

I would personally like to do a much larger, pass over Kamino in the future

For now, is it possible to just move the imp spawn in a mini-patch and see how it plays? Move the imp spawn closer to staircase as suggested so both teams arrive at the top of staircase/entrances to science lab and objective to make one of the most interesting maps in the game a lot more playable with minimal effort? Why does everything need to be a massive overhaul project when little patches and 'testing tweaks' could fix problems quickly and without much effort?

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Its possible, but it isn't as simple as it sounds. Gotta have multiple test sessions to make sure you got the right spot, and multiple compiles if you got it wrong to adjust. Sure you could just throw the change out in the wild, but that isn't a good idea. Shifting the spawns up completely invalidates that other side route.

Also, we have very limited development time, so I would rather concentrate on getting certain things done, than go do potential temporary overhauls on a map that already exists. 1 and 2 on qwertys list are really easy. 3 is not, however.

If someone else wants to take a stab at it, they are welcome to. My plate is just too full at the moment, even for something this small.

 

[mage!]

Also, we have very limited development time, so I would rather concentrate on getting certain things done, than go do potential temporary overhauls on a map that already exists. 1 and 2 on qwertys list are really easy. 3 is not, however.

If 1 and 2 on the list are very easy then isn't it worth spending minimal time to make an unbalanced map much more balanced and fun to play for both sides? Could the breezeway be unlocked by default to allow more flanks and alternate pathways(qwerty point 2)? Also for the spawn change, is it possible to do this in just a basic custom server:

1. figure out where you want rebs and imps to 'meet', e.g. where the majority of classes will arrive (ideally right outside door at top of staircase)
2. conduct basic test with a couple of classes (maybe invite a couple of players to do it in a custom server) to see how long it takes for them to get there, e.g. soldier, arc dex3, mando, etc
3. set the imp spawn so classes on both teams arrive at the desired 'meet' point (top of staircase)
4. compile map and patch

Worst case scenario the map is a bit imbalanced in imps favour, but the map is already heavily imbalanced in rebs' favour. Little time was lost and a quick change to find a 'middle ground' spawn point would be easier to test as you now know which spawn is too little 'current imp spawn' and too much 'new imp spawn' - the best imp spawn would clearly be inbetween these two areas, e.g. outside the staircase door instead of inside.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Problem is that, who decides what the proper meet up point is without really testing things to make sure it is correct? You can do what you said to iron things out, but if you're shifting imperial spawns that far forward, its very likely rebel spawns would need to be shifted in a way that needs a decent amount of map work to get it just right. I doubt current rebel spawns would be timed correctly for that spot.

There are also tons of maps heavily imbalanced in imperials favor as well. Classic DOTF and DS are on that list, but they're wildly popular.

 

[qwerty]

Problem is that, who decides what the proper meet up point is without really testing things to make sure it is correct? You can do what you said to iron things out, but if you're shifting imperial spawns that far forward, its very likely rebel spawns would need to be shifted in a way that needs a decent amount of map work to get it just right. I doubt current rebel spawns would be timed correctly for that spot.

There are also tons of maps heavily imbalanced in imperials favor as well. Classic DOTF and DS are on that list, but they're wildly popular.

You look at the map to see where the most interesting point in that area is and that's where the meeting point should be. We've seen by playing the map for years that the current meeting point is, like I said in the OP, the tiny door where rebels shoot at the imperials from above, which doesn't make for very engaging gameplay. The junction where the staircase, the science lab exit, the route to the objective and the lift corridor all meet would make for much better balanced and more fun action. Just moving the imperial spawn to be an equal distance (since both teams pretty much run in a straight line from their respective spawns to the main area) from there would fix the problem of imps getting stuck in their spawn which is what happens 90% of the time when you play the map with more than ~15 players. Requires testing? Sure. Possibly gonna need some tweaks if the first iteration turns out to be too skewed one way or the other? Maybe, but I wouldn't be too worried about creating the first attacker favoured map in MBII's history. In any case it's a low effort fix to make a currently unplayable map very good. If your concern is with workhours then this is a great gamble to make. I wouldn't say the same for making brand new maps, some of which never see the light of day.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Maybe, but I wouldn't be too worried about creating the first attacker favoured map in MBII's history. In any case it's a low effort fix to make a currently unplayable map very good.

Imperials are already favored on the majority of maps. Rebels can be favored on this one, its their home territory. Also, you kinda said the same thing about the objective shift starushka presented to you, before I did it. How it would shift the balance of the map to be more favorable. Its a map that just needs to be redone from scratch.

 

[qwerty]

Imperials are already favored on the majority of maps. Rebels can be favored on this one, its their home territory. Also, you kinda said the same thing about the objective shift starushka presented to you, before I did it. How it would shift the balance of the map to be more favorable. Its a map that just needs to be redone from scratch.

the point is that if the attackers are favoured that makes for more dynamic gameplay because the defenders are forced to make plays to win the round as opposed to just being able to hold positions and automatically be at an advantage not so much about whether it's rebels or imperials. and i have to say i don't remember how the old main corridor in kamino looked, i know that the rebel spawn was a little further back inside the training room so it might have been enough to make the difference in timing the teams arrival at the staircase. i think the new obj area is very cool, as is the science lab - stairway connector and all the surrounding spaces, the problem is we rarely get to see them used to their full potential because imperials don't ever get that far, and if they do they've suffered huge losses from having to push through a really bad chokepoint

 

[mage!]

Rebels can be favored on this one, its their home territory.

incoming darth maul buff on dotf

 

[Starushka]

I do not believe that even small changes can be made quickly. We must approach this wisely and with all responsibility.
We should not neglect the consequences of any changes, namely just moving the imp spawn forward will make side outside route useless and not practical. So outside area should be redone too to fit this change.

I agree with every point. The outside area should be reworked. The entrance requires a lot of work to.

I have something in mind, will make a concept art tomorrow.

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Dekas and Mandos can manage to beat Rebs to coming out of the door, actually. Which creates a situation alot like Tantive IV's old single-floor build where you can just toss a rocket down a chokepoint and kill four/five people.

 

[Starushka]

Original

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Modified

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Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like Starushka.

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Side route inspiration

https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/98844/pub_5d7bb94fb5e99200aead1353_5d7bb977c7e50c00ad881ab7/scale_2400

I imagine something like that

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

This is smut porn.

More.

 

[qwerty]

That looks really really good. As long as the spawn timings are also adjusted this would be amazing. I would also recommend adding a few small boxes or something more thematically appropriate for cover in the breezeway and in the new side route, right now the breezeway especially is quite empty and not the most fun place to fight in.