Jedi survive direct nades/rockets

[S o l d i e r]

Problem:
When holding block, the Jedi can reduce the damage from nades and rockets, but that damage reduction is so strong that they don't die when a nade or rocket detonates very near to them, like one metre away. Plus, they have the ultimate defense against nades and rockets in the form of Push, so after this blocking thing was added nades and rockets are very ineffective against them.

Solution:
Well placed nades and rockets against the Jedi should be rewarded just because how hard it is to land them while avoiding getting Pushed. I suggest to have a zone radius very near to the Jedi where the blocking of damage from nades and rockets won't work. This would also be realistic when a huge blast happens in their face.

 

[NERO]

You are in a cooldown that prevents you from pushing. (Lightning, Push, swing, knockdown, slap

Other than lightning push, the cooldown will have enough time to pass unless you're too close to the grenadier/rocketeer.

You are in a position that prevents you from pushing. (Line of sight blocked by other players, preferably opposing team's saberists)

Jumping, moving, angle pushing and good estimation skills.
Of course if you're blocked by an enemy saberist they will probably slash you but at that situation your opponent's teammate's grenade is probably far less threatening to you and more for your teammates and you will want to push it anyway.

Grenade arrives into the room from an angle where you do not have sufficient time to push it out of the room.

Angle pushing.
But also not letting yourself into that sort of a situation.

(Judging by the discussions I'm currently having on these forums it seems the playerbase has started putting a lot less effort into space control and awareness of their enemies positions.)

Rocket arrives into the room from an angle where you do not have sufficient time to push it out of the room.

Same as the previous one but angle pushing matters less


Whether grenades are there to clear space or kill people, and whether pushing grenades or rockets is easy or hard, is meaningless in a situation where a grenade falls close to a jedi and they survive it when they should die.

Speaking of space clearing, knockdowns and the like, jedi's stationary getup animation needs to be removed and replaced with something similar to what ETs and such have. The roll and kickfront/back animations are good because they can use that to avoid fire but also gives reasonable time to shoot them.

 

[S o l d i e r]

You can also Force Jump to avoid getting damaged/killed by nades/rockets.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Whether grenades are there to clear space or kill people, and whether pushing grenades or rockets is easy or hard, is meaningless in a situation where a grenade falls close to a jedi and they survive it when they should die.

I'd say it is very meaningful as the explosive's goal should not be to kill someone straight up.

 

[Jeob]

We could roll back to a previous version where Jedi survive rockets and grenades by holding block+crouch while losing only 10-20HP.

Sure, I like changes, gives the game a refreshing experience. Though no idea which version you're referring to, I'm v0 newb, but since those builds, I think jedi always died to very near nades. Or if it was in one of the v0 builds, then it didn't happen too often, after all it required crouching which jedi won't do normally, only a handful of players with more knowledge could abuse that. It's not comparable to this situation where any jedi will be taking nades in his ass 24/7 and surviving. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, if jedi taking 10-20 dmg from nade was a common thing in older builds like B16,17,18, RC1 etc..
By the way I recall a version (or maybe more) where bounceshots could deal 4-5 dmg to sith, maybe that's the one you're talking about.

If someone with full HP dies from a grenade, it's not crowd control at that point is it?

So dieing with full HP to a frag is undesired result, ok. Interesting approach, I thought since a grenade is lethal in real life it would be in a game too, and as far as I know in almost any other game you can die to grenades with full HP. But with that in mind, perhaps give heroes damage reduction, they are most likely to die to 1 frag with full HP. BH/mando/ARC will only die if they make a bad move when the nade explodes and get themselves splatted on a wall, depends on armor lvl ofc, maybe even 100/75 mando dies to frag if it explodes in his face. Sold/ET/clone doesn't count, cause they have respawn. SBD, wook, deka, well we all know...

I'd even argue that if a Jedi survives with 5-11 HP, he's as good as dead anyway. He's not going to slash anyone good to death, he's not going to survive any sensible mando, he will not survive an encounter with a poison dart, a blob, a secondary grenade, pushing a grenade/rocket/player and so on...

That's totally true, if the jedi is in fireline of anyone when he gets hit down to 5-11 hp, he's probably dead right there, but almost anything can happen in mb2, so a jedi with 5 hp can still be a problem, especially if he's on the winning team. This all comes down to opinion. Here's my take. Getting in a close nade on a jedi, we're talking about a really close one, right in his face or on his shoes is rare. We could say it requires luck, but the bigger factor here is that the jedi fucked up royally, essentially he moved in the perfect position to get blown up. Even if the jedi notices the nade a little late, he can increase the distance between him and the nade easily with a good strafe jump. So this rare occassion which requires bad play should be death to 100 hp jedi, it doesn't affect the gameplay significantly.

Overall according to you what we have is a bad state. Running jedi can still easily die with 100 hp, and apparently even a blocking one if his motivations are reversed. I mean instead of trying to get away from the nade he walks straight on it, that can't be done accidently while you're trying to get away.

EDIT:
Anyway talking about this by making up scenarios in theory is much harder than showing actual gameplay. So I uploaded a demo for you, note it's from 1.4.4. Our problem happens in the 25th round (demo starts at 18th). A jedi wtih visas model and blue lightsaber will survive a pretty close nade. The guy managed to get 2-3 steps away from it, but I think we can agree that he was really close. So everyone can decide whether it's fine or not, but the problem is presented accurately. Have a nice day. Anyway if you take the time to watch the whole demo - it's about 30 mins-, you will see jedi dieing to nades which are way further. Maybe cause they were already wounded but also because they were running.
Uploadfiles.io - demo0051.dm_26
Also remembered that Polak has a video about it, it's 1.3 with red's damage reduction perk though, I don't know if that's the same durability as the current jedi.

 

[S o l d i e r]

Does someone want to come with me to an empty server to test this? I've been trying this morning in Open, but couldn't get it perfect.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

as far as I know in almost any other game you can die to grenades with full HP. But with that in mind, perhaps give heroes damage reduction, they are most likely to die to 1 frag with full HP.

It's best to look at other LMS games for reference: Counter-Strike grenades are largely crowd control. Frags can be lethal but have a far smaller blast radius than MB2's.

That's totally true, if the jedi is in fireline of anyone when he gets hit down to 5-11 hp, he's probably dead right there, but almost anything can happen in mb2, so a jedi with 5 hp can still be a problem, especially if he's on the winning team.

Deserved survival.

Overall according to you what we have is a bad state. Running jedi can still easily die with 100 hp, and apparently even a blocking one if his motivations are reversed. I mean instead of trying to get away from the nade he walks straight on it, that can't be done accidently while you're trying to get away.

I would very much prefer to de-emphasize explosives as killing tools by decreasing splash damage slightly.

EDIT:
Anyway talking about this by making up scenarios in theory is much harder than showing actual gameplay. So I uploaded a demo for you, note it's from 1.4.4. Our problem happens in the 25th round (demo starts at 18th). A jedi wtih visas model and blue lightsaber will survive a pretty close nade. The guy managed to get 2-3 steps away from it, but I think we can agree that he was really close. So everyone can decide whether it's fine or not, but the problem is presented accurately. Have a nice day. Anyway if you take the time to watch the whole demo - it's about 30 mins-, you will see jedi dieing to nades which are way further. Maybe cause they were already wounded but also because they were running.
Uploadfiles.io - demo0051.dm_26

I'll take a look when I can.

Also remembered that Polak has a video about it, it's 1.3 with red's damage reduction perk though, I don't know if that's the same durability as the current jedi.

Very different. Red's damage reduction was ridiculous.

 

[S o l d i e r]

Here is the best one I got so far:

Edit: Increased FOV.

 

[NERO]

I'd say it is very meaningful as the explosive's goal should not be to kill someone straight up.

Man we shouldn't probably kill people with blasters either, just route them so they can be shot with snipers or slashed with sabers I guess

We've been throwing grenades with a very clear intention to kill things for years now and now there's this one guy who believes grenades should follow his tactical repertoire and not do that.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Here is the best one I got so far
Edit: Increased FOV.

Yeah, seems like a direct hit would leave you at around 5-10HP as speculated. What I would be interested in seeing is similar cases with other single life classes. I assume they also survive with similar health remaining. Blocking DR currently stands at around 10-20% or so if my memory serves me correctly. This would place the explosion's damage at that range to around 90-100. This would mean any single lifer with armour will also survive. Most of which also have good escapes for explosives (Dexroll, Dash, Jetpack, high movement speed, high HP).

Man we shouldn't probably kill people with blasters either, just route them so they can be shot with snipers or slashed with sabers I guess

Blasters tend to deal chip damage as well. So they don't really straight-up kill anyone either. The only exceptions tend to be lightsabers and snipers here and even they have their edge cases where the target survives.

We've been throwing grenades with a very clear intention to kill things for years now and now there's this one guy who believes grenades should follow his tactical repertoire and not do that.

We've been throwing grenades with very clear intention to create space for teams to advance and now there's these two guys who believe it's good when players get one-shot with little counter-play in a Last Man Standing game where the dead have to wait 1-4 minutes for the next round to begin. This thread has only 3 active participants who have voiced an opinion.

This train of thought is moot. I can voice what I find to be better suited for the game just as much as you can and provide counter-points to your points. Do not single me out as the only one who uses grenades efficiently already.

To me it feels much better for a Last Man Standing game to have as little instant deaths as possible, bringing in one for a specific class just because it's got an ability to repel explosives seems odd considering it usually means the class will more often than not be at the forefront acting as an anti-explosive shield. Do the same for Dekas?

Before any "but lightsabers" and "but snipers" arguments, I'd like to point at flinch and the general trend of toning down sniper damage.

I don't imagine it would be fun that the explosives were more potent. As it creates less choices for players.

 

[S o l d i e r]

This would mean any single lifer with armour will also survive. Most of which also have good escapes for explosives (Dexroll, Dash, Jetpack, high movement speed, high HP).

It's much easier to damage those classes than Jedi, especially if they are playing defensively. And, plus, Push and Jump are more supreme than any of those for other classes.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

nades and rockets are fine, ben's right. use them to create chaos, if you get a kill with a nade that's just a bonus (or you found a really sick nade to throw, congrats u have did it)

fun nades to try: throwing behind a retreating team, throwing straight up when outnumbered, tossing just behind a rushing jedi into the ceiling so it bounces back on you.

 

[Lessen]

adding to above: throw nade in such a way that if the jedi pushes reflexively the nade will still bounce back to him

also on commtower and sometimes in other maps with high ceilings, you can lob some really high up vertical nades that are more difficult to push or anticipate, and still have good horizontal range.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

It's much easier to damage those classes than Jedi, especially if they are playing defensively. And, plus, Push and Jump are more supreme than any of those for other classes.

True, but a Jedi needs close range to deal damage. There's a lot of asymmetry to take into account here.