Jedi damage reduction

[NERO]

This gets talked about here and there but I wanted to make a thread solely about it because every other thread discusses like 50 different ideas and damage reduction gets drowned under walls of text. Even if there were a shitton of discussion about this I still want to bring more of it just because it's the most severe issue in the game at this moment.

I haven't touched this game for months now. I've played MBII for 9-10 years and it's my favorite shooter but every time I even consider booting the game I'm instantly discouraged.
Why?

Rhetorical bullshit aside, the issue: jedi damage reduction. It's insane. I've been in situations where somebody sec fragged a sith into the air, we riddled him with an E-11 and Clone Rifle 3 for that period hitting majority of the shots, nepper lands and acts like nothing happened and just cuts the other guy in half. Somehow they still have force to deflect all my CR3 shots for about a 5 meter distance and kill me. Sure, could've played better, could've shot better, but it's still ridiculous how they should've died at least two times by then but they keep walking. It's been maybe a month or two since this and it's still burned in my mind like some kinda traumatic war memory.

Jedi is my most played class, should be happy I can tank-a-ton. Not really. Whenever I pick up jedi these days I feel more encouraged to just run at a pile of 4-5 gunners, tank their shots and take at least 3 down with me before I die. Unless they all hit my head or knock me down I'm not dying. More certain to help my team than trying to play carefully. Unless you wanna just play support but with this experience I'd rather let 'er rip a little. Even if they knock me down it may not help at all since the magical space button makes knocking down jedi completely useless unless you've got really good aim.

Jedi don't have to execute against gunners well while gunners have to hit almost every shot and likely use a knockdown ability as well.

Damage reduction was brought back because the style passives were removed for not fitting in. I guess it was fine to remove the passives if it really didn't fit the devs design ideas but replacing them with a nigh-broken mechanic was a severe mistake. Should at least reduce the damage redux to 10 percent or replace it with a placeholder mechanic that is helpful but doesn't take too long to implement.

Might be there's been an official statement about this that would satisfy me but I can't find jack on these forums anymore and they're discouraging to check daily anyway when majority of threads are proposing modern shooter mechanics, some kinda crazy move crap for every class or people RPing as robots.

 

[Crusader]

When jedi loses fp he dies in a second. How much should it reduct damage to even consider giving up a large chunk of fp and fp regen? Will you be tankier than an SBD? The only situation when I can imagine it would be useful if you want to leave the battle and turn your back to gunners. But imo you should be punished for that.

To be truthful I could not even begin with a number. Such things should be revised and tweaked by people who frequently play Jedi/Sith on open, as well as gunner. I simply have not played the class long enough to know the ins and outs of where they need DR; there are undoubtedly many situations Jedi/Sith players get in that I am unsympathetic to due to this. I know certainly from playing as a gunner where they definitely do not need DR which I have outlined in the post above. This is just the direction I would like to see DR take: active, not passive.

The ability having a FP cost is a condition only so that it could not be activated at 0 FP. There is no explicit mention of the FP cost, it does not have to be large like we are used to with sense and mind trick. It could be quite small. The intention of this is to allow Jedi/Sith engage in aggressive skirmishes without suffering too heavily if played well. On the other hand Jedi/Sith that are caught off guard should take full damage. As a gunner it is comforting to rationalise that a Jedi/Sith that killed me took reduced damage because they used an ability but will likely be low on FP without DR and vulnerable to a follow-up now. As a Jedi/Sith I imagine it is comforting to know that they will be healthier after a successful encounter and that they have the potential for more if they play it right. The problem with passive DR is that is helping Jedi/Sith in areas where it should not.

There are people who could suggest numbers better than myself, and I invite them to do so. We know roughly what certain values of %DR feel like to play against with the old red stance. Thinking along those lines might be a good start.

Because that is totally what I want to see happen, a Jedi charging at me that pops a dota-style ability and makes him tougher, despite my blaster shots going through his forehead.

I would rather there just be more skill to deflecting, and a buff to it.

We both know Force Protect is a well defined force power in JK3; there is no need to refer to it as a dota-style ability. The idea of a Jedi charging at you using a JK3 force power to toughen themselves with the force is the concept. Saying 'despite my blaster shots going through his forehead' is not so much a contradiction of the concept than it is a result thereof. Scrutiny is good in the pursuit of fine-tuning any prospect, but if your only objection is that a JK3 ability is doing what it is intended to do I cannot comment further.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Why would I want a JK3 ability that is rather unrealistic and uninspired in the first place? I have yet to see Jedi granting themselves immunity to being shot in the head in movies, and it is movie battles.

 

[Revanic]

The Force itself can not be limited to only what we've seen in the movies, as it's even suggested to go beyond what we've been shown. There is no doubt a skilled Jedi or Sith could use The Force to shield themselves from taking too much damage from something, they'd just have to know it's coming or that they are heading into such a situation that it is necessary. It's not unrealistic in the Star Wars universe.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Disney says otherwise. Regardless, the idea of popping an ability to make yourself tougher bothers me. Toughness should be a passive, and should be incorporated into your skill build.

 

[TheDimReaper]

What's wrong with flinch exactly? I consider myself to be a decent gunner, but flinch rarely makes a difference when I face skilled sith/jedi. Sure, it helps kill reckless saberists who charge you hoping for a quick kill, but that's it.

I never found myself relying on it because of how hard it is to actually make it work vs good jedi/sith. Flinch helped me blast a lot of bad saberists, but it never really mattered when I went against ones who cleverly used their brain, movement, level geometry and force powers to their advantage. Those guys usually rekt me without even giving me a chance to flinch.

So in short, I think flinch does the right thing. It motivates you to act like a real jedi - using tricks and outsmarting your opponent, instead of running wild like a wookie.

Flinch is one of the best ideas that have been added into MBII. It separates Reckless Jedi who don't actually know how to play jedi, to those who actually think and know how to play jedi and have put the effort to learn it. I consider myself decent at Jedi and I have mained jedi, and I have learned how to counter Flinch by swingblocking I learnt this by complaining on the forums when flinch was first introduced and I was told the solution. I tested it and practiced Swingblocking vs gunners now what this did was stop me from taking damage when being flinched even though I didn't land my hit I still saved myself from taking damage, however just swingblocking doesn't make you an amazing Jedi it is also about working with your team supporting them, positioning so many other things. If flinch didn't exist a jedi who did know about the swingblocking vs gunner could easily destroy gunners without suffering a scratch of damage if he watched his fp. Now does that sound fair one Jedi coming in swingblocking everything and killing every single gunner in sight?

That is my opinion on flinch and Jedi at the moment (everything is perfectly fine)

I wish you all a good time

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I have no problem with jedi/sith a hard class to learn.
But still, flinch as it is, is just retarded, jedi/sith now have a hard time and gunners just have to spam their blaster at your direction without thinking.
In this build you dont need "skill" to kill a jedi/sith as gunner, just a fast gun to spray everywhere.
Many just rush jedi/sith now and i dont think they should get a reward for this, gunners are a ranged class.
Remove flinch and come up with something which is fair for both sides, maybe some kind of vibroswords for meleegunner.

 

[TheDimReaper]

I have no problem with jedi/sith a hard class to learn.
But still, flinch as it is, is just retarded, jedi/sith now have a hard time and gunners just have to spam their blaster at your direction without thinking.
In this build you dont need "skill" to kill a jedi/sith as gunner, just a fast gun to spray everywhere.
Many just rush jedi/sith now and i dont think they should get a reward for this, gunners are a ranged class.
Remove flinch and come up with something which is fair for both sides, maybe some kind of vibroswords for meleegunner.

However are you talking about 1v1 gunners or with your team, also when you say in your direction no gunner can just follow you around that's what being unpredictable is for, not to get hit and not give yourself away and tbh there isn't that many gunner weapons that can spray you down except for the following

Clone rifle 3

Deka firepower 2-3

SBD firepower 3

Tbh that isn't alot and not alot of people play these classes (except A.I but Q 11 doesn't rely on flinch and Goliath doesn't rely on flinch either) a rifle 3 clone will be tough but if you move about enough and they cant keep their distance they will most likely fail unless the have eye sight a accuracy of a hawk.

Also "vibroblades" and "meleegunner" I hope that is sarcasm.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

No, it wasnt sarcasm, i wouldnt like it myself but its better then flinch.
Anyway clonerifle 2 is enough to let a sith get flinched like hell.
Deka, sbd and wookie shouldnt have it at all and the most annoying thing is soldiers can flinch too, seriously they have 3 lifes...
Red and purple are useless. (But soon they get a purpose again)
The funny thing is now people cry to nerf forcepowers. really? Push/Lightning spam is just the answer to flinch.
1.4 was like a slap in the face for all j/s, gunners must be proud now they dont need skill to kill a j/s.
Im one of the people which are really bad as gunner, but even i can kill j/s now most of the times, you just have to panicspray, thats just sad.
Something really should be changed about it, this so called flinch feature is one of the worst things i saw since i play games.
Im looking forward, to the next update for now, there are many things planned, so the discussion is for the moment useless, almost everything was said and i dont feel the need to repeat anything from the pages before.

 

[Jiube]

pushed gunner, came to him to claim my frag, caught random shot during the strike, was flinched, gunner got on his feet, killed me with 1 shot, deleted the game.

Except finch only works if the source of damage is within the range of saber swing. So, that would not be possible in the current live build if you are in any way close to being smart with your movements.

Most of you guys just did not get to play or don't remember RC3 P3 when the forceusers were much weaker and nooby jedies died easily, but there were still guys like Shocker or 000000 who could easily be a top fragger in the team while playing a jedi. Hell, 000000 was a terrible team-player, you would rarely ever see him push a nade to save a teammate, and I believe he was not that good of a person, but he would go in and single-handedly destroy most of the enemy team. And he could repeat it reliably, again and again. And this is the time when forceusers were even weaker than now: the regen was slower, the drains were faster, the speed of the swing was slower, and if I recall correctly, insta-swing (which is fixed in the current live version) was not reliable and very random in this specific build. And some of the community were also complaining on forums that forceusers are overnerfed .

I think someone just needs to learn to play smart. The good old "git gud" argument works surprisingly well here. I mean, when I pick jedi on a server I have no issues with killing gunners, only SBD and Wookies may give some trouble, as well as a skilled hero, clone, or ET/sold. But it all usually comes down to mistakes I make, and I usually have enough options available for me to work around all of these if I'm smart.

Take example from TheDimReaper, guys. Research the subject in detail before considering to complain on forums.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

If someone decides to protect this cheat feature for bad gunners i always have to smile.
I play mostly as sith since a while and lightning is a good way to deal with this flinchcrap.
And if everything fails, i jump into them like a maniac and wait them to tk themself, while they try to shoot me.
Since this game is so unbalanced, its easier to use the weakness of the players then the classes.
This talking about skill ist cute, since flinch gunners dont need skill.

 

[Revanic]

Jedi with one-hit-kill lightsabers and knock-down-so-you-die powers do not use more skill than flinch gunners, especially with damage reduction. So, it is balanced, just in a way that kind of feels bad.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Jedi with one-hit-kill lightsabers and knock-down-so-you-die powers do not use more skill than flinch gunners, especially with damage reduction. So, it is balanced, just in a way that kind of feels bad.

So you think its fair a bunch of gunners can shoot nonstop at j/s, but he has no chance to swing?
FP drains so fast that, you dont have much options.
Nah this game is right now just broken in many ways.

 

[T r i s t a n]

So you think its fair a bunch of gunners can shoot nonstop at j/s, but he has no chance to swing?
FP drains so fast that, you dont have much options.
Nah this game is right now just broken in many ways.

All the devs seem to want to do is break MBII...

 

[Jiube]

So you think its fair a bunch of gunners can shoot nonstop at j/s, but he has no chance to swing?

He has all the chances. Flinch only starts working at very close range. Move smart and use it.

FP drains so fast that, you dont have much options.

We must be playing different games. In the current version you can literally run around a gunner for 3 minutes of a 5 minute round with your FP staying constantly above 75%. I tested it time and time again in the curren live build. And at any point in time jedi can kill the gunner. Especially, when his ammo runs out. And that is including increased damage from IDR and running.

 

[*Rhiannon*]

^ is true. Devs do neef jedi every build. So hopefully they do something with flinch like Tempest has stated, and do nerf lightning a bit. And it would make me uber happy if they made yellow cough cough 6 points again. Oh also add 10-20 points of health instead of some weird damage reduction calculation that we have now

the whole point of yellow being 6 points was because it was supposed to be the most basic style and had no perk. Now that it has a perk it'd be kind of unfair to have it be 6 points and the other styles 8 points

 

[Preston]

the whole point of yellow being 6 points was because it was supposed to be the most basic style and had no perk. Now that it has a perk it'd be kind of unfair to have it be 6 points and the other styles 8 points

I'd like all to be 6 tbh

 

[President Bossk]

EH, I think jedi are pretty balanced now if played right. I think we need to leave them alone.