Jedi damage reduction

[NERO]

This gets talked about here and there but I wanted to make a thread solely about it because every other thread discusses like 50 different ideas and damage reduction gets drowned under walls of text. Even if there were a shitton of discussion about this I still want to bring more of it just because it's the most severe issue in the game at this moment.

I haven't touched this game for months now. I've played MBII for 9-10 years and it's my favorite shooter but every time I even consider booting the game I'm instantly discouraged.
Why?

Rhetorical bullshit aside, the issue: jedi damage reduction. It's insane. I've been in situations where somebody sec fragged a sith into the air, we riddled him with an E-11 and Clone Rifle 3 for that period hitting majority of the shots, nepper lands and acts like nothing happened and just cuts the other guy in half. Somehow they still have force to deflect all my CR3 shots for about a 5 meter distance and kill me. Sure, could've played better, could've shot better, but it's still ridiculous how they should've died at least two times by then but they keep walking. It's been maybe a month or two since this and it's still burned in my mind like some kinda traumatic war memory.

Jedi is my most played class, should be happy I can tank-a-ton. Not really. Whenever I pick up jedi these days I feel more encouraged to just run at a pile of 4-5 gunners, tank their shots and take at least 3 down with me before I die. Unless they all hit my head or knock me down I'm not dying. More certain to help my team than trying to play carefully. Unless you wanna just play support but with this experience I'd rather let 'er rip a little. Even if they knock me down it may not help at all since the magical space button makes knocking down jedi completely useless unless you've got really good aim.

Jedi don't have to execute against gunners well while gunners have to hit almost every shot and likely use a knockdown ability as well.

Damage reduction was brought back because the style passives were removed for not fitting in. I guess it was fine to remove the passives if it really didn't fit the devs design ideas but replacing them with a nigh-broken mechanic was a severe mistake. Should at least reduce the damage redux to 10 percent or replace it with a placeholder mechanic that is helpful but doesn't take too long to implement.

Might be there's been an official statement about this that would satisfy me but I can't find jack on these forums anymore and they're discouraging to check daily anyway when majority of threads are proposing modern shooter mechanics, some kinda crazy move crap for every class or people RPing as robots.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

You did got pushed back a bit if got hit by blaster, if i remeber correct?
That was good and shows if a gunner was doing good, flinch is just an silly op feature for gunner who are not good enough to kill a jedi/sith.
Flinch Commercial: Is the jedi/sith near, spray your blaster and win, without fear!

 

[StarWarsGeek]

This is such a silly point of view. Soldier has 3 lives, sith has 1 and people act like they should be the same strength. In this build gunners are already better than jedi, and if you have problems killing them that says more about your individual skill than the game.

Get good

Since you think you're so good why don't you explain how to kill a decent lightning sith guarding a small chokepoint instead of making childish ad hominem arguments.

And if you do insist on arguing using logical fallacies, maybe you just need to "get good" at playing sith without lightning. I don't have any trouble killing jedi. It's just sith with lightning that are too powerful. It's far too easy to kill gunners as a sith with lightning, especially when you're on the defending team.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Of course you have no problem killing jedi, they have nothing to counter flinch like the sith.
So you want weaker lightning, because you want easy kill sith. *sigh*

 

[Smee]

Since you think you're so good why don't you explain how to kill a decent lightning sith guarding a small chokepoint instead of making childish ad hominem arguments.

And if you do insist on arguing using logical fallacies, maybe you just need to "get good" at playing sith without lightning. I don't have any trouble killing jedi. It's just sith with lightning that are too powerful. It's far too easy to kill gunners as a sith with lightning, especially when you're on the defending team

You clearly don't know what ad hom is because i didn't use an ad hom argument

How to kill them?

• Bounce a nade around a corner then shoot them when they're down.
• Quick throw nade at them and shoot them when down.
• Use teamwork like you are supposed to. Do you complain when a wook beats you in a melee duel as well? There are counters to lightning sith.
• Bait them into using lightning then shoot them.

Now, for your second point:
First of all, I don't have any sith builds with lightning.
Second, lightning if anything is underpowered as sith, for the points it costs you are missing out on more powerful powers.
I have played Rebel soldier for tens of hours and hardly ever died to lightning sith at all because i don't try to rush in and treat soldier class like wookiee (even though against non-lightning sith this works)

 

[Megatron (The Shredder)]

My only problem with lightning is when I'm a gunner and I'm killed and respawn that the lightning sith just has to get within lightning range and shock me again because I can't out run him in a open spawn area and die.

When I'm not playing ET or Soldier I don't have as much of a problem against lightning sith, usually because either I'm dead or I am able to at least keep a distance from those pesky lightning sith.

 

[T r i s t a n]

You clearly don't know what ad hom is because i didn't use an ad hom argument

How to kill them?

• Bounce a nade around a corner then shoot them when they're down.
• Quick throw nade at them and shoot them when down.
• Use teamwork like you are supposed to. Do you complain when a wook beats you in a melee duel as well? There are counters to lightning sith.
• Bait them into using lightning then shoot them.

Now, for your second point:
First of all, I don't have any sith builds with lightning.
Second, lightning if anything is underpowered as sith, for the points it costs you are missing out on more powerful powers.
I have played Rebel soldier for tens of hours and hardly ever died to lightning sith at all because i don't try to rush in and treat soldier class like wookiee (even though against non-lightning sith this works)

I agree with Smee.
If anything lightning should get buffed.

 

[Szunti]

I can flinch saberists a lot of time when they just attack mindlessly. But there are also good players and they still kill me easily. Plus if saberists would be weak, than they wouldn't be played by at least 50% of the players again. Actually it's quite common again when I am nearly alone as gunner in open. I think there is a base assumption that saberists must be the stongest class. Eg. look how ridiculously sounds if I switch saberist and gunner:

Why would you attack a hero alone as sith? This is a team game, you need to team with another sith to get the hero. He can't flinch both of you the same time.

 

[Smee]

I can flinch saberists a lot of time when they just attack mindlessly. But there are also good players and they still kill me easily. Plus if saberists would be weak, than they wouldn't be played by at least 50% of the players again. Actually it's quite common again when I am nearly alone as gunner in open. I think there is a base assumption that saberists must be the stongest class. Eg. look how ridiculously sounds if I switch saberist and gunner:

Why would you attack a hero alone as sith? This is a team game, you need to team with another sith to get the hero. He can't flinch both of you the same time.

False equivalency, soldiersget 3 lives, sith get only one.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Btw why you are talking about heroes? They are easy prey.
Soldiers are the main problem they shouldnt have flinch, they have 3 lives. No reason for them to flinch.
Same goes for wook, sbd and deka. Hell did you see wook with bowcaster, who thought get them flinch is a good idea?
If you see a wook, run and if you are last suicide. Dont let this wooknoobs get a cheap kill. Meleewooks are like teddys compared to flinchwooks.

 

[Bybo4ka]

Use class sinergy for more efficiency. When i hear something like "Omg soldier too OP vs sith" i just smiling, because soldiers getting one shotted by P3.

There is no class that will rule every other classes. Every class can be countered. The only difference is some classes is easier to play, and some classes are harder to play.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Another typical gunner who defends flinch without good arguments. Fearing for your k/d hm?
The only ones who see how wrong it is are saberist and few good gunners like appo.
The rest try to defend the feature which help them to get cheap kills it seems.

 

[Szunti]

Flinch is needed imo, Before flinch, for me it looked like: jedi could always trade a kill for a maybe hit if got close. A soldier had three hits, which can't kill a jedi unless headshots, But it's most unfair for 1 life classes. A lot of players changed to melee if jedi got close, cause it was more likely to survive with a kick than with shooting.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Of course you have no problem killing jedi, they have nothing to counter flinch like the sith.
So you want weaker lightning, because you want easy kill sith. *sigh*

FYI, I probably end up playing jedi/sith more often than I play gunner. Lightning makes it way too easy to kill most gunner classes, especially soldiers and ETs.

Another typical gunner who defends flinch without good arguments. Fearing for your k/d hm?
The only ones who see how wrong it is are saberist and few good gunners like appo.
The rest try to defend the feature which help them to get cheap kills it seems.

It's hardly cheap, jedi/sith have an infinitely regenerating pool of force points to act as ammo for their abilities. Gunners only get a limited amount of ammo for grenades/blobs/other anti-saberist tools. What is cheap is saberists running up and taking swing while getting hit by shots yet still getting the kill. [sarcasm]The only people who understand this are the people who actually play both classes. People who only play jedi/sith just want to go back to tanking shots to get cheap kills.[/sarcasm]

It was pretty obvious that Jedi/Sith had a massive advantage over gunners in 1.3. Flinch tipped the balance the other way slightly. Some high ROF weapons are too powerful with it (which Tempest is already looking into fixing), but in general it's been one of the best changes to saber vs gun balance in a long time.

 

[Preston]

I think flinch is bad and stuff but lighting is definitely op.

 

[Tempest]

Lightning/Grip 1 are too strong (this is usually what people are having issues with) for the extremely low cost of buying them. Those are pretty high on the list of things to be looked at with the force changes.

 

[T r i s t a n]

I feel like the player is being nerfed here... Not the Jedi/Sith class. I don't know how I feel about some of this...

 

[Smee]

Lightning/Grip 1 are too strong (this is usually what people are having issues with) for the extremely low cost of buying them. Those are pretty high on the list of things to be looked at with the force changes.

No they aren't. Every single build you devs make jedi and sith even worse just because noob gunners complain that their three life class isn't perfectly equal to jedi/sith at close range. Lightning is perfectly fine, and is barely used already. If you make it more expensive you may as well just remove the power, because nobody will buy it.

 

[Preston]

^ is true. Devs do neef jedi every build. So hopefully they do something with flinch like Tempest has stated, and do nerf lightning a bit. And it would make me uber happy if they made yellow cough cough 6 points again. Oh also add 10-20 points of health instead of some weird damage reduction calculation that we have now

 

[Bybo4ka]

Lightning/Grip 1 are too strong (this is usually what people are having issues with) for the extremely low cost of buying them. Those are pretty high on the list of things to be looked at with the force changes.

Grip is usable only in sith vs enemy gunner(1). Lighting is usable when you got someone to help( lighting 1 isnt OP ). This powers are kinda situational.

 

[Tempest]

No they aren't. Every single build you devs make jedi and sith even worse just because noob gunners complain that their three life class isn't perfectly equal to jedi/sith at close range. Lightning is perfectly fine, and is barely used already. If you make it more expensive you may as well just remove the power, because nobody will buy it.

I play both gunner and saberist. Most Sith have been using lightning 1 vs Hero now because it's 4 points to stop them from scoping and being able to use P3. I think that's perfectly fine aside from how long the gunners aren't able to retaliate for that 4 point easymode button (if the "stun" duration was lowered, then the window for not being able to use force powers afterward would be lowered too btw).

Grip is usable only in sith vs enemy gunner(1). Lighting is usable when you got someone to help( lighting 1 isnt OP ). This powers are kinda situational.

I use Grip vs Jedi (Force Focus helps to break stalemates) more than gunners at this point because if you're trying to charge it vs a gunner, they're probably just going to have drained most of your FP by the time it gets locked on (in which time I could have just ran up and used Lightning 1 and then slashed them).

I'm not intending to imply that I want to change the powers completely. Just adjusting risk/effort vs reward like with P3.

Also:

^ is true. Devs do neef jedi every build. So hopefully they do something with flinch like Tempest has stated, and do nerf lightning a bit. And it would make me uber happy if they made yellow cough cough 6 points again. Oh also add 10-20 points of health instead of some weird damage reduction calculation that we have now

Just for some perspective, it's pretty hard to tweak gunner vs saber in any way without shifting the scales (and I imagine there's any number of ideas people have for how to do that but the idea doesn't always match the result). Damage reduction may have been the right idea but have been done to too high a margin (I personally think it was the right idea but 10% would have been more appropriate). Flinch has good intentions but the execution turned out to not be the best. It's still better than before with every saber lawnmowering gunners with basically 0 effort (not that that doesn't still happen to some degree but it's an everlasting WIP). This is also why being transparent about things and getting more feedback from the community is proving to be good, too .