I'm tired of the current state of dueling

[RogueWookiee]

I am just really sick of this system. In the past year dueling took a massive fall, we went from a nice, fun dueling system to a dull boring, swinging a swim noodle shit fest. This just isn't satisfying the community and I have heard countless criticisms on why dueling just isn't fun anymore and that the older systems were unstoppable fun. Older builds had fun and complex mechanics like the Older Pblock system that just made dueling feel immersive, also Style perks like Staffs Mblock, Yellows fast A swing, and some more perks for other styles. Patches like,V0,V1,1.3 were all great builds, 1.3 is a perfect example of how the dueling system should be with new PB system inherited into it.. They had style perks, red had stagger, Nudge existed. We asked for a revert but we were denied its possibility. We asked for a nerf on counters and It was removed ENTIRELY, why? And that current public cyan is just terrible. 6 hits? really? This just turns cyan into a 6 hit spam fest with no skill involved but knowing how to swingblock. Dueling used to be about attacking your enemies weaknesses and timing your swings, But now its just about who can pblock and spam more. This doesn't feel complex, this doesn't feel fun, It's boring, Incompetent, and a lot of people are just sick of it. Everyone plays the same but just in a different code of paint. Style balancing is just fucking DOGSHIT. Stassin and tempest need to quit arguing and collaborate to make something great similar to mb2's golden past.

We are getting UI, maps, hilts yeah hurr durr, But no one cares if these mechanics aren't changing. All I want and what the community wants is a big step up and the developers of this beloved mod to get their shit together and start seeing some positive changes that could breath more life into the mod we all love.

 

[kcaz759]

OwO

 

[CBD]

I've avoided making an account on here forever. But basically, this.

Dueling is boring. It's spammy. It's samey. It feels like we're being forced into one dude's vision of exactly how dueling should go down.

The beta is a good starting point. It's not perfect, but it's at least fun. Give us that. Give us something. It's well beyond time.

 

[jacedagoat]

can't agree this dueling system is actually quite good i wouldn't change a thing besides making it impossible to parry with zero bp

 

[TrixterT24]

git gud. this patch is the bestest that has ever bested

 

[RogueWookiee]

git gud. this patch is the bestest that has ever bested

truly the greatest patch. Totally

 

[TrixterT24]

At least you agree

 

[Hexodious]

As an open mode player, BP drains still are too low. Strategy remains ignore Jedi and kill gunners and only mblock and duel if required,

 

[SeV]

Current system is extremely clumsy and shallow. Styles are a mess and it doesn't fit open mode at all. Fixing the saber system should be pushed to the forefront of development, as it is one of the biggest factors in player retention long-term. Nobody gives a fuck about 50 shades of kylo ren when the largest factor of attraction in this game is half-broken.

Relying on interrupts or ACM ramping for damage necessitates lower base damage which leads to this spammy noodle gameplay that doesn't fit with open mode at all. Aimed PB is also a little problematic in this regard, but much less so. I can't believe it's been so many years, but I think it was in 2017 that I suggested a much higher base damage on attacks, faster BP regen to compensate, and also having the saber act as damage reduction.

I think it is really stupid that hitting the tip of an opponents lightsaber counts the same as slicing him in the belly.
Saberhit should not = Bodyhit.

To give an example of the basic idea. (Numbers can be changed ofc, this is just to illustrate how to fix the current predicament)

If current base damage is 1, we raise the base damage to 1.75.
NB/SB/Old PB/saber blade is 50% damage reduction, resulting in a blade hit being 1.25. This is our new base damage.
Now a bodyhit is truly meaningful as it deals .50 more damage than a saberblade hit.

We keep the current aimed PB mechanic and add defensive bonuses on it. Like in 1.4 it could drain ACM, or it could return some BP.
Aimed PB could also allow for faster counters.

---

Another issue to tackle is damage inconsistency in general. This is one of the reasons I most dislike huge interrupt damage and why I am not a fan of this weird damage reduction on combo hits. It maybe a necessary evil, but if this is kept, the combo damage disparity should be less obvious. Maybe 1 for first hit, .9 for halfswing and .8 for combo.

Interrupt damage should be no more than 1.2 imo.

I also STILL think that swingblock should be 1 and base swing dmg should be 0.9 or even 0.8 to reward skill and disincentivize noobily holding M1 facehug crouch WA+WD retard combo spam + jump away and repeat.

---

Style speed difference. Styles like duals, cyan and blue need to be slowed down slightly. This will provide much smoother and more pleasant gameplay when using these styles. I've always favored a system where most styles are near to yellow in speed, as yellow is nearly perfect in that regard.

Also, bring back perks to make styles more unique and interesting both in open and duel. Tie the styles to the lightsaber forms or something, make the game more interesting and deep again instead of a shallow interrupt pb dodge spam fest with no mind-gaming/strategy elements.


----

Special attack collisions.

The current specials feel off. I cannot reliably parry YDFA even though it used to be easy in the past. The butterfly attacks feel awkward. Whatever happened to them needs to be strongly reconsidered. I get that you want ppl to be able to bodyhit them and so on, but it just feels like shit atm.

Also, bring back red hop without reload, it's shit with reload. Too many buttons to press at once, very inelegant and disrupts flow.

---

ACM specific thoughts.

Should be more predictable and more gradual. There should be no limit to how much ACM u can get in a combo or when chaining halfswings.

This is a simple sort of outline of the idea. Again, this is is illustrative of the intent behind the idea not necessarily the precise numbers.

For Medium

Dealing 1 bodyhit = 1 ACM

Taking 1 saberblock = 0 ACM
Taking 1 PB = -2 ACM

For Fast

Dealing 1 bodyhit = 1 ACM

Taking 1 saberblock = -1 ACM
Taking 1 PB = -2 ACM

For Heavy

Dealing 1 bodyhit = 2 ACM

Taking 1 saberblock = 1 ACM
Taking 1 PB = -1 ACM

MB counter drains an additional ACM on top of the PB.
Mblocking and disarming an opponent removes all ACM from the opponent.

---

1 aimed PB could also return half of the PB'd attacks BP Drain if u wanna go down that route. Just another idea. This depends on how high u wanna go with base drains. If base drains are only increased 50% and saberhit is 25% u might not need bp regen on pb. There are many ways to go here, but hopefully I've illustrated some basic principles that make sense, i.e that saberhit should not = bodyhit


---

Just canvasing a few suggestions to fix things here, don't take it all 100% seriously, but honestly consider the intent behind my ideas and if it wouldn't make for a MUCH better system both suited for deep dueling skills and also open mode play.

 

[RogueWookiee]

^

 

[The Unguided]

As far as I remember Duel mode was a lot of fun when it got implemented first. Now however it's really just "how to PB" (I still can't lol). And there are some people like in god-mode all the time, spamming the hell out of everyone, therefore I leave to a Legends mode (Legends is awesome btw!) or Open mode server preferably.

I agree Duel mode should be looked into, though I wouldn't like MBII to be only about duels. (I got a feeling some people play only because of that.)
So once you have worked out something great, don't change it in every single patch. Shuffling puppets in a table won't make things better. Have a fixed vision of what would be great in all terms, then stick to it. At least that's how I imagine to do justice in this case. I'm not even sure how we got here since we had better versions of Duel mode in the past.

 

[AgentGibbs]

Oh there is so much to talk about now that there is a place to put it, but a reminder of some of the MB2 history first. Prior to V0, we had B19 and the RC patches, in these days dueling servers were populated for hours upon hours by the same people, and this was in the days where you had 1 life, and if you died first, may have to sit out for 4.5 minutes. So why did people stay when they might only get one duel every 5 mins? Because the system was fun. You could create your own style of dueling and make it work, so long as you practiced it well enough. Interrupts and timing, pbs and counters, nudge interrupts, and heaven forbid footwork. These were all aspects to dueling back then. V0 was a shitfest of trying something new, but got polished out in 1.3, 1.3 is the last time we saw any half decent dueling, but then we degraded back into what everyone has been saying for a while now, it is just pb and combo spam. Having better timing, getting interrupts, getting the occasional counter swing, all these are irrelevant because when someone gets below half, they just stand there and pb until they are full, then go back to their 4 swing spamming. There is no other play style for dueling right now because all of the flavor has been taken out of dueling. Dueling was never about styles being equal, it was about knowing how to duel against the style you were facing with whatever style you had. For instance, Red had an advantage over yellow in damage output, but with proper timing and foot work you would always win. Blue could interrupt every red swing, but proper counters and nudges allowed red to fight blue. These were what made the older saver systems good. Im not going to ask for a straight reversion of course, but at least listen to the people that have been dueling for years as the primary reason for playing this game. Its not about all styles balancing one another out, that will never work, its about having a system that every duel isnt a copy and paste of the last one.

 

[RogueWookiee]

Oh there is so much to talk about now that there is a place to put it, but a reminder of some of the MB2 history first. Prior to V0, we had B19 and the RC patches, in these days dueling servers were populated for hours upon hours by the same people, and this was in the days where you had 1 life, and if you died first, may have to sit out for 4.5 minutes. So why did people stay when they might only get one duel every 5 mins? Because the system was fun. You could create your own style of dueling and make it work, so long as you practiced it well enough. Interrupts and timing, pbs and counters, nudge interrupts, and heaven forbid footwork. These were all aspects to dueling back then. V0 was a shitfest of trying something new, but got polished out in 1.3, 1.3 is the last time we saw any half decent dueling, but then we degraded back into what everyone has been saying for a while now, it is just pb and combo spam. Having better timing, getting interrupts, getting the occasional counter swing, all these are irrelevant because when someone gets below half, they just stand there and pb until they are full, then go back to their 4 swing spamming. There is no other play style for dueling right now because all of the flavor has been taken out of dueling. Dueling was never about styles being equal, it was about knowing how to duel against the style you were facing with whatever style you had. For instance, Red had an advantage over yellow in damage output, but with proper timing and foot work you would always win. Blue could interrupt every red swing, but proper counters and nudges allowed red to fight blue. These were what made the older saver systems good. Im not going to ask for a straight reversion of course, but at least listen to the people that have been dueling for years as the primary reason for playing this game. Its not about all styles balancing one another out, that will never work, its about having a system that every duel isnt a copy and paste of the last one.

And this is exactly what I am getting at.

 

[JamJarBinks]

So the next question is, who is the person we need to bribe to make he changes happen?

 

[Hessu]

As an open mode player, BP drains still are too low. Strategy remains ignore Jedi and kill gunners and only mblock and duel if required,

BP drains aren't too low, BP regen is just too fast, which is one of the biggest flaws on the current system

 

[Fluffy |>]

I want more saber tricks and fun options as a low/moderate skill dueler. Stuff like aerial downstab and other ways I can put my general mb2 experience to use without having to spend time on the pb and sb practice grind

 

[SeV]

BP drains aren't too low, BP regen is just too fast, which is one of the biggest flaws on the current system

You want low regen so that there is no way to recover and all duels will end with two people 0 bp combo spam jumping?

I'd rather have higher regen, chance for quick kills via disarms, interrupts, slaps and well-executed attack-chains, a slowly growing ACM alongside defensive mechanics and offensively oriented special attack tricks (like in that version by stassin we tested, most fun version ever for me maybe and would be so good in open. Basically groundstab but for every ability, cartwheel-chains in the air, RDFA's and all manner of funky good stuff)

--

Let me give you a hint on how shallow current dueling is.

There are two things you need to do.

1.

Wait for the opponent to attack. Make sure you are as far away as possible to increase the chance you hit the first PB.
Off of that first PB, start a combo that ends with you getting the last hit on the opponent.

Now you have taken an advantage. +1 ACM GG lads.

Rinse and Repeat whenever possible. Soon you will have an overwhelming ACM lead and win by default. Wow that really required a lot of skill!

2.

Learn how to abuse fast yawed halfswings. You can get the timing by holding D and reload and air-swinging. Hopefully u can tell that there is something wrong with the halfswings and that they happen at a faster pace. If you get the timing, u can do 3 halfswings on a slapped down target instead of 2.

Basically, just rape your mouse to the right while holding D.

Voila, you are now a master duelist.

All that remains is to know when to apply 1 and when to apply 2.

1 is your default. When the opponent is good, you have to patiently accept their halfswings and wait for an opportunity to abuse with 2. Even one hit of halfswing spam can give you incredible mileage and even out a losing game in an instant. Thus, slap is your friend. If you get a slap and spam 3 halfswings, you've pretty much already won.

Oh, and don't bother with footwork. Just walk circles with A D without holding walk and try to PB as you wait for your turn.

 

[qwerty]

Oh, and don't bother with footwork. Just walk circles with A D without holding walk and try to PB as you wait for your turn.

this to me feels like the biggest problem with current dueling. movement is completely irrelevant which makes pblocking and avoiding being pblocked while hitting as many swings per combo as possible the only 2 things that matter. dueling has never been this shallow and i'm really hoping for a return to more movement/timing based dueling as that was much more fun and took a lot more skill translatable to open gameplay.

 

[Threepwood]

this to me feels like the biggest problem with current dueling. movement is completely irrelevant which makes pblocking and avoiding being pblocked while hitting as many swings per combo as possible the only 2 things that matter. dueling has never been this shallow and i'm really hoping for a return to more movement/timing based dueling as that was much more fun and took a lot more skill translatable to open gameplay.

That is an overstatement imho. Just like Sev said, all you need to do is hold your distance to be first to pb and then counter to get the last hit. You can do this proactively at any given time by avoiding enemy swings at the border of barely hitting, heck you can even yaw halfswings to get some epic interupts with low effort, but these methods and definitely their success are very footwork dependant. I'm not saying it is deep or whatever, but it isn't quite as you describe. Footwork is crucial even with the current state of affairs, it is tightly coupled with the 'mechanics' Sev mentioned. Same with timing,: interupt damages are quite noticable, so initiating a badly timed combo or not knowing when to stop a combo will have major consequences. The biggest struggle you'll possibly have if you're an advanced duelist is fighting against a halfswing spammer who has a kung fu grip over his swingblock and is highly avoidant/doesn't want to make the first hits. Because why should you make the first hit if you're clearly rewarded by getting the last hit on your opponent.

If footwork wasn't important, it would be feasible to stand in one place and try to play the meta - it isn't as feasible as holding distance or shadowswinging, literally giving your opponent a good run for his money. I've always felt that dueling styles shouldn't define how duels play out in the bigger plan, because forcing someone to play the way you want without many options beyond fighting fire with fire is a bad design. Yeah you can be a better pber or have better timing, but on an equal skill basis in general the attacker is always at a disadvantage.

 

[jacedagoat]

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