Future(s) of the Force (Part 1)

[Tempest]

As promised, since Phase 1 of the saber vs saber changes are mostly ironed out, here's the introduction to the various tweaks/changes for Force-related things that I have in mind/am considering currently. Feel free to comment about the specifics I include or just general thoughts about how things work vs how you'd like to see them changed.

To start, I'd like to reiterate (from other discussions) that I don't like binary mechanics/concepts. I don't think all of the Force stuff is that way but there's definitely some things that need to be looked at. Cases like Push overshadowing Pull in terms of ease of usage and reward (in general or vs varying levels of effort/thought required) while still costing roughly the same amount of points in a build aren't what I'd consider binary but are priorities when it comes to getting things in order. Also, bringing Force-oriented specs more in line with saber+Force builds (or even just making Force-oriented specs a concrete/consistently useful thing rather than gimmicky or considered to be trolling by most) is a primary goal for this set of changes.

General things on the table:
1) Adjusting mechanics
This would involve things like changing Push/Pull from just being click+point (or just click with Push in a lot of cases..) to having a charge-up that determines their behavior.
2) Consistency
Differences in the levels of powers and their effectiveness (looking at you Lightning 1 and Grip 1)
3) Push vs Pull
As I mentioned, I'd like to bring Push more in line with Pull. Reducing the arc that Push affects is one example/consideration for doing this.
4) Grip vs Lightning
This is a more fickle case but I think is definitely something to consider (especially in the cases of level 1 of each). Lightning 1 basically accomplishes what Grip 1 does without having a build-up to it. It does have the drawback of not being able to use other powers afterward but at that point, the enemy could probably be dead already.
5) Deflect
Possibly freeing up a power slot and re-allocating Deflect's effects between the different levels of Saber Defense (combining level 1 of Deflect with Defense, 2 of Deflect with 2 of Defense, etc).

There's a lot of things to consider but those are the main points of interest. Also, just to be clear, I haven't looked at possible differing costs of abilities yet since this is all still in the early early stages of being changed.

With that said, I'd like to introduce what I've dubbed "Force Attunement". On the gameplay side, this would be a new ability that would serve the purpose of allowing you to give up saber defense in exchange for enhancements/tweaks to the powers that you choose in your build instead of simply losing your saber (or having one just because you don't have anywhere else you want to put the points) and having the option of a few (more) powers at higher levels. On the development side, this would allow for easier changing/adjusting of things like Push's arc, charge-ups (or lack thereof) for powers, and so on (yay more bugs features). I'm currently thinking of having Attunement be an inverse relationship with Saber Defense. This means if you had level 3 in Defense, you wouldn't be able to get any in Attunement. If you had level 1 Defense, you could have level 2 Attunement. Basically, an easily visualization of sacrificing your saber skills for better Force attributes (a similar system to how you can only have certain styles mixed together).

Spoiler: Attunement Details

Level 1:

• Would increase the arc of Push (basically putting it to how it is now vs the reduction for non-Attunement builds)
• Slightly increased FP pool or regeneration
• Possible alternative (or maybe even the explicit) way of unlocking Repulse (maybe even just as the alternative to Jump 3 as a requirement)

Level 2:

• Less FP drain from being shot
• Minor damage decreased from light weapon shots via blocking with melee
  
• Increased FP pool or regeneration (separate/increasing upon level 1's stuff)
  
• Blue's Force Focus perk (2x faster on others, 2x slower on yourself unless the other person has the same attribute; or maybe split the perk in half between Attunement 2 and 3)
• Lightning block would now drain FP/halt FP regen (could depend on Lightning level as well)
  
• Able to displace (this doesn't inherently mean knocking them down) saberists with Push/Pull/Repulse regardless of them blocking/FB level/etc (would quite likely be adjusting Force Focus to work properly) in tandem with Attunement
• Maybe allow limited cases of simultaneous power usage (depends on engine limits though)

Level 3:

• Any power used on saberists would drain FP regardless of FB/Focus (wouldn't necessarily affect them, just make it easier to do things afterward, more or less)
• Shots blocked via melee would have further damage decreases (no blocking projectile rifle shots with your fists though, sorry)
  
• Specific bonuses depending on the levels of other powers, such as:
  • Force Block 3 would allow for modified threshholds for when powers could affect you
  • Mind Trick 3 allows for immunity to Sense while meditating; also possibly make it so that MT shares invisibility with teammates within a certain radius of the user
  • Lightning 3 + Force Block 2 or 3 would deal less damage to teammates
  • Lightning 2+ catches Wookiees on fire after a duration if they don't have Health 3
    
  • Repulse would affect Wookiees differently depending on their Strength levels (Strength 2 = get knocked down but maybe have to only have Strength 1 to play pinball with them)

• More cases of simultaneous powers being used

Level 1 Attunement might seem underwhelming compared to the others but remember that you'd be able to have it with Defense 2 at the same time. I also have other ideas for various combinations but those start to get a bit too complex for the early stages... Now, for powers and possibilities for what to do with/to them.

Spoiler: Push

• Reduction of effective arc
• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this) vs players (would still affect projectiles/grenades within the arc as it does now)
• Knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Spoiler: Pull

• Possible (small) range reduction
• Add an arc similar to Push rather than be solely single target
  
• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this)
• Disarm/knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Spoiler: Grip

Level 1:

• Has visual/auditory indicator (entire process)
  
• Requires walking while activating and maintaining
  
• Forces target to walking speed and greatly reduces rate of fire (or maybe only allows primary shots or something along those lines)
• Deals __ damage per tick

Level 2:

• Has audio indicator for full process, visual only when it's nearing completion
• Can run while activating but forced to walk while maintaining
• Immobilizes target but still allows them to do very slow return fire
• Deals __ damage per tick

Level 3:

• Only has audio indicator
• Can run while activating but walk while maintaining (somewhat faster than default speed)
• Allows for lifting the target into the air and moving them, no retaliation allowed (except for powers from Jedi)
• Deals __ damage per tick (probably will kill or nearly kill a Jedi from full health if Grip lasts entire duration)

Spoiler: Lightning

Level 1:

• __ damage per tick (minimal)
  
• Forced to slowly walk while maintaining (capped duration, maybe?)
  
• Target can use low rate of fire shots while being affected

Level 2:

• __ damage per tick (depends on single or double stream)
  
• Can run while doing single stream, normal walk speed with double stream
  
• Can do two forward streams from melee (different animation than current 2H stream)
• Target can't fire while being affected and is minimally slowed (between running and walking speed)

Level 3:

• __ damage per tick
  
• More damage if used in melee (current 2H lightning)
  
• If target is knocked down, does further increased damage
• If maintained with a saber, forced to walk
• If maintained in melee, forced to speed between running and walking
  
• Target can't fire and is slowed while affected (walking or less than walking speed)

Remember, none of this is set in stone. I think that's a good start for now though, whew.

 

[Vitéz]

@Tempest, of course you didnt convince me about everything, but as I see we're closer to understand each other's points about your ideas.

Spoiler: Attunement

2) I'm still not convinced, IMO this still doesnt make sense, but I doubt I could convince you about that.
3-4) Technically yes, its Protect from base JKA, but technically MB is aimed to improve JKA to became an authentic game. Protect is not authentic, its a great Dark Forces II leftover, and it fits into the core games, but not into MB, what is much more authentic about everything. Thats my only problem with Protect, or in this case: damage reduction. If we say that this goal about authenticity is altered a little bit, IMO it'd be great to see all DFII-JKO powers and weapons in Open mode. But if the goal remains: I'm against damage reduction.
5) So we agree about this hit+run tactic is valid. There's the part about running... which makes Force Focusing harder by its nature... thats why I say that a buff to Force Focus resistance is not necessary... because it'd make Force Focus nearly impossible. Force Focus is only useful if the target has active Force Block... so before the run part of the hit+run move is done... thats another reason why I believe that a FF resistance buff is not necessary. But as I said: a buff to be able to FF others faster is good,
6) I still dont like the idea to give Force Block another exploit by FP drain, but I agree that the current Force usage is binary, basically thanks to the Force Block itself, and it should be changed. Since I dont have any alternative to solve this "problem", I stop being against this idea... I still dont like it TBH, but lets see how it'll work ingame.
10) My problem is that it'd look odd if a Gunner who is invisible via MT starts shooting just because of the missing cooperation... because it'd break MT in the very first second. I doubt that a break in sight could be a big difference... maybe on the first week when the players are not adapted to the changes. And I doubt that the grounded Gunners could do much while being invisible, since the MT duration is fairly slow nowdays. But lets see how it'll look like ingame.
11) I just say that the idea that a Sith, who use Lightning (lets assume lvl3) on a Rebel and an Imperial Soldier, and the Imperial Soldier gets less damage... is unrealistic.
13) Valid point, but IMO it'd make more sense to change Wookiee Strength. On the first place, Grip immunity is very outdated. Grip has a channeling period before activating, while the Wookiee has a lot of ways to prevent the activating period being completed (like using Melee, Grenade, or simply the Bowcaster). Lightning immunity is also "strange". And if your Lightning ideas about activating Lightning would force the player to walk will be added to the mod, than the existance of Lightning immunity would be outdated too. The Sith couldnt use Lightning to make an instant kill (or at least hit) against Wookiee, and TBH the shocking/stunning part is makes sense... Wooks are living things, just like humans, so Lightning should affect Wooks the same as it affects humans. The damage is very little compared to the possible 400 max HP of the Wookiees. So Wookiee Strength would be limited to Push/Pull only, and SBD has protection against these powers too... its protection is weaker, but they also could buy immunity against a LS power, while Wooks wouldnt be able to get immunity against any DS power.

Spoiler: Push

The first part of my answer here looks kinda off-topic, but it leads to my opinion about Jedi vs Gunner combat, what is the core of these ideas.
Everyone is "obsessed" with the idea that a Jedi vs Gunner fight starts in close range. That is not true. And its obvious that in this case the Jedi is more powerful, but the Jedi is much weaker in mid- and long range. Not to mention things about this is being a team based game mode with objectives. A lot players believe that its his/her duty as a Gunner to kill a Jedi in 1 v 1. That is a very big mistake. About what you said: dont forget about what happens if a Jedi misses a hit / the Gunner uses an anti Jedi ability/attack to counter, or the Jedi misuse a Force power / the Force power is being blocked by the Gunner. The Jedi is in the very same situation as the Gunner is after a missed shot or a misused ability. IMO the main difference is that while Jedi is very agile, most Gunner classes are simply slow... the Jedi can escape thank to this mobility, while the Gunner cant.
IMO another flaw in these theories about Jedi vs Gunner is that a very important part about this is always forgotten: the knowledge. The knowledge about the weapons, attributes and possibilities of the Gunner classes are all known by the Jedi. If you see a Jedi: a Jedi is capable to do a lot of things, simply because of you dont know which abilities will be used, and because of course the Jedi is much more agile via base speed and Force Jump... and dont forget that the Jedi has more playstyles available (support, offensive, deflect user, tank, etc.). If your opponent is not a full beginner, you probably wont know all the weapons (Force powers), attributes and possibilities of the Jedi. On the other hand: the most used Gunner classes (Sold, ET, Hero, BH, Clonetrooper, Mando) are very limited, especially against Jedi. Of course you can build a lot of different builds, but your playstyle, your possibilities, and even your base weapons against a Jedi will be the same... you'll be predictable. IMO its something what must be changed in Open mode if you ever want to give more chance to the Gunners against Jedi in close range.
Changing the arc of Push/Pull wont force the Jedi to put in more effort at all, and it wont change anything in combat. As I said before: I saw a lot of changes in Jedi vs Gunner system in the past years... in every single case I heard that "the changes are working, things are good now"... and 1 month later it became obvious that basically nothing changed: the players simply adapted to the tweaks. Thats why I think a more... drastic change would be necessary to do something... tweaks wont solve this problem... they never did, they never will. Thats why I dont "care" about the arc reduction... about the charged Push part... I only said that I dont have enough info to say anything. I have my doubts about the idea, but still dont know enough about it.
Of course this was my subjective opinion about this situation. I could be totally wrong on that. But I still believe that using tweaks to achieve what you want is pointless and it never will be successful. Or things would be solved by now.

Spoiler: Grip

Its obvious that Grip is an 1 v 1 ability, because its a single target skill, while it makes the user vulnerable. No tweak will ever change that. And I disagree, the targets have a lot of options against Grip... because the combat isnt starts when the Gunner is already gripped.
However, I totally agree that a 4 point power shouldnt be so powerful. Its a problem for years, and you're right about this, things should be changed. So make the ability more expensive. Force Speed lvl1 requires 6 points, and its totally useless. Grip lvl1 should require at least 12 points, but if we notice that lvl3 requires 27 points, and its not more useful than lvl2 and lvl1, it may should be more expensive. And please dont further nerf Grip. It'll be useless.

Spoiler: Lightning

Same as I said at Grip: make Lightning more expensive. On the second thought, I'm not against the "ability forces the user to walk" idea..
But the idea of the targets would be able to shoot back still doesnt make any sense. They'd have to walk to get perfect accuracy? That is the trick? And what if I go closer to them? It'll be easier for them to shoot me. Yes, I could try to use Push, but I'd only be able to do this in FW mode, and only if the target is running... but the target will walk to get perfect accuracy and shoot me in the head. IMO you overcomplicated the problem about the DS powers, all they need is to make them more expensive... a lot... at least this is what I think.

 

[SomeGuy]

With that said, I'd like to introduce what I've dubbed "Force Attunement". On the gameplay side, this would be a new ability that would serve the purpose of allowing you to give up saber defense in exchange for enhancements/tweaks to the powers that you choose in your build instead of simply losing your saber (or having one just because you don't have anywhere else you want to put the points) and having the option of a few (more) powers at higher levels. On the development side, this would allow for easier changing/adjusting of things like Push's arc, charge-ups (or lack thereof) for powers, and so on (yay more bugs features). I'm currently thinking of having Attunement be an inverse relationship with Saber Defense. This means if you had level 3 in Defense, you wouldn't be able to get any in Attunement. If you had level 1 Defense, you could have level 2 Attunement. Basically, an easily visualization of sacrificing your saber skills for better Force attributes (a similar system to how you can only have certain styles mixed together).

Spoiler: Attunement Details

Level 1:

• Would increase the arc of Push (basically putting it to how it is now vs the reduction for non-Attunement builds)
• Slightly increased FP pool or regeneration
• Possible alternative (or maybe even the explicit) way of unlocking Repulse (maybe even just as the alternative to Jump 3 as a requirement)

Level 2:

• Less FP drain from being shot
• Minor damage decreased from light weapon shots via blocking with melee
  
• Increased FP pool or regeneration (separate/increasing upon level 1's stuff)
  
• Blue's Force Focus perk (2x faster on others, 2x slower on yourself unless the other person has the same attribute; or maybe split the perk in half between Attunement 2 and 3)
• Lightning block would now drain FP/halt FP regen (could depend on Lightning level as well)
  
• Able to displace (this doesn't inherently mean knocking them down) saberists with Push/Pull/Repulse regardless of them blocking/FB level/etc (would quite likely be adjusting Force Focus to work properly) in tandem with Attunement
• Maybe allow limited cases of simultaneous power usage (depends on engine limits though)

Level 3:

• Any power used on saberists would drain FP regardless of FB/Focus (wouldn't necessarily affect them, just make it easier to do things afterward, more or less)
• Shots blocked via melee would have further damage decreases (no blocking projectile rifle shots with your fists though, sorry)
  
• Specific bonuses depending on the levels of other powers, such as:
  • Force Block 3 would allow for modified threshholds for when powers could affect you
  • Mind Trick 3 allows for immunity to Sense while meditating; also possibly make it so that MT shares invisibility with teammates within a certain radius of the user
  • Lightning 3 + Force Block 2 or 3 would deal less damage to teammates
  • Lightning 2+ catches Wookiees on fire after a duration if they don't have Health 3
    
  • Repulse would affect Wookiees differently depending on their Strength levels (Strength 2 = get knocked down but maybe have to only have Strength 1 to play pinball with them)

• More cases of simultaneous powers being used

Level 1 Attunement might seem underwhelming compared to the others but remember that you'd be able to have it with Defense 2 at the same time. I also have other ideas for various combinations but those start to get a bit too complex for the early stages...

Did you think of the idea of having the opposite of a force whore? Like full on saber and force attunement, but no powers to use? Basically be a tank build for defense.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Did you think of the idea of having the opposite of a force whore? Like full on saber and force attunement, but no powers to use? Basically be a tank build for defense.

This would be a really nice idea, since there were Jedis/Sith which werent good in the force and choose to be masters of different saberforms.
I think it would be great to have very defensive tank like j/s.
I would play this, protecting mates is more a reward to me then get kills.

 

[Tempest]

Stumbled across the answer to our Dex 3 vs super push mystery today! Apparently, if you have Dex 3 and aren't in the air when pulled, you aren't allowed to be super pushed. The more you know.

Did you think of the idea of having the opposite of a force whore? Like full on saber and force attunement, but no powers to use? Basically be a tank build for defense.

I've thought about it, yes but haven't expanded on it yet (both in my own notes and with anyone else that would be involved).

 

[President Bossk]

Would this attunement make force whores better?

 

[Tempest]

Think of it more in terms of having Force specs actually be a relevant thing rather than gimmicky.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Why do I feel like we Sith/Jedi are being nerfed...​

 

[takuta pls]

Why do I feel like we Sith/Jedi are being nerfed...

probably not, imo having more things to utilize (and better ways of utilizing current things) is more of a buff

 

[Onysfx]

I didn`t read the entire thread yet, so sorry if something I'm about to say has already been said:

Push:
I've always liked the charge idea, although I'm not quite sure how it would work. A gunner could easily counter a fully charged push, unless the jedi was sneaky about it.
Pull:
How about instead of giving pull knockdown, simply make it easier to pull weapons, especially from multiple people?

Damn I g2g, I'll finish this post later.

 

[Preston]

probably not, imo having more things to utilize (and better ways of utilizing current things) is more of a buff

Stassin said that they were nerfing jedi and sith more though. Which isn't good in my opinion but you know..

 

[Onysfx]

What forcewhores really need is to be able to assist the team in fighting jedi, and not just waiting until their FP is below 50 and then lightning push.

 

[Stassin]

Stassin said that they were nerfing jedi and sith more though. Which isn't good in my opinion but you know..

Yeah, the intention isn't exactly to nerf jedi/sith, just to make it harder to play. The balance is alright in the current version, but the class is still way too easy to play compared to gunners so we're working on changing that, however little we can.

 

[Preston]

Yeah, the intention isn't exactly to nerf jedi/sith, just to make it harder to play. The balance is alright in the current version, but the class is still way too easy to play compared to gunners so we're working on changing that, however little we can.

Not many things easier to do in mb2 than deka,sbd and clone but whatever.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Not many things easier to do in mb2 than deka,sbd and clone but whatever.

You forgot wookie with bowcaster.

Yeah, the intention isn't exactly to nerf jedi/sith, just to make it harder to play. The balance is alright in the current version, but the class is still way too easy to play compared to gunners so we're working on changing that, however little we can.

Balance alright? J/S easy? You must joking, sir.
Its time to nerf gunners now.
Soldier with flinch and three live + what preston said...nope! no balance.

 

[Preston]

Jedi was easy, now with flinch the way it is, and the incoming nerfs to push and other things alike, gunner is much easier. Things will only get worse for jedi as time goes on with the way things are heading, and I play gunners mostly btw.

 

[Stassin]

gunner is much easier

TRIGGERED


NEIN. ICH BIN DIKTATOR. ICH ENTSCHEIDE. ICH BIN IMMER RICHTIG. SIE LIEGEN FALSCH. GEWEHR VIEL SCHWIERIGER ALS SÄBEL.

NICHTS MEHR ZU SAGEN ??????

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Easiest classes to play by far are jedi/sith and hero/bh. There's a reason most servers are filled with sabers and snipers. Clone is powerful too but not quite as easy as saber/sniper.

I haven't had any trouble killing soldiers/ETs because of flinch. Against low or mid ROF weapons, flinch was only a very slight nerf. Being able to instaswing out of a nudge helps more than flinch hurts tbh. Flinch is only too punishing in the hands of CR3 and FP3 SBD. Once you start swingblocking all the time and using instaswings from nudges flinch is practically irrelevant against most classes.

 

[Lessen]

Being able to instaswing off of a blocked shot is what makes me, as a gunner, feel hopeless in 1v1s against good jedi. But I'm not sure that's a problem, since I don't think lone, non-specialist blaster dudes have a right to be able to go toe-to-toe with lone Jedi. I'm fine with basic gunners being at their best when supporting and being supported by allied saberists.

 

[Preston]

TRIGGERED


NEIN. ICH BIN DIKTATOR. ICH ENTSCHEIDE. ICH BIN IMMER RICHTIG. SIE LIEGEN FALSCH. GEWEHR VIEL SCHWIERIGER ALS SÄBEL.

NICHTS MEHR ZU SAGEN ??????

Yeah not really, with flinch now all you have to do is aim and shoot whenever they swing. Yes you can swingblock, but it doesn't matter, if they keep aiming decent you'll just keep getting interrupted. It's a faulty system. I'm not sure about what you guys think, but imo clone is the easiest class to play by a decent amount, because of blobs of course.
And yes I can still kill gunners fairly easily but that isn't the point. Imo gunner is indeed easier, especially considering Hero,Clone,Deka/SBD/Wookie. I would consider it fair to say that those classes are more powerful in nature than Jedi/Sith, especially because of how flinch is atm.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Yeah not really, with flinch now all you have to do is aim and shoot whenever they swing. Yes you can swingblock, but it doesn't matter, if they keep aiming decent you'll just keep getting interrupted. It's a faulty system. I'm not sure about what you guys think, but imo clone is the easiest class to play by a decent amount, because of blobs of course.
And yes I can still kill gunners fairly easily but that isn't the point. Imo gunner is indeed easier, especially considering Hero,Clone,Deka/SBD/Wookie. I would consider it fair to say that those classes are more powerful in nature than Jedi/Sith, especially because of how flinch is atm.

I would say wookie and sbd are the easiest and really annoying.
As jedi/sith i always avoid fighting them.
Flinch is faulty, everyone knows this but most of them are gunner and they are happy about their easy kills, so they dont care.