Future(s) of the Force (Part 1)

[Tempest]

As promised, since Phase 1 of the saber vs saber changes are mostly ironed out, here's the introduction to the various tweaks/changes for Force-related things that I have in mind/am considering currently. Feel free to comment about the specifics I include or just general thoughts about how things work vs how you'd like to see them changed.

To start, I'd like to reiterate (from other discussions) that I don't like binary mechanics/concepts. I don't think all of the Force stuff is that way but there's definitely some things that need to be looked at. Cases like Push overshadowing Pull in terms of ease of usage and reward (in general or vs varying levels of effort/thought required) while still costing roughly the same amount of points in a build aren't what I'd consider binary but are priorities when it comes to getting things in order. Also, bringing Force-oriented specs more in line with saber+Force builds (or even just making Force-oriented specs a concrete/consistently useful thing rather than gimmicky or considered to be trolling by most) is a primary goal for this set of changes.

General things on the table:
1) Adjusting mechanics
This would involve things like changing Push/Pull from just being click+point (or just click with Push in a lot of cases..) to having a charge-up that determines their behavior.
2) Consistency
Differences in the levels of powers and their effectiveness (looking at you Lightning 1 and Grip 1)
3) Push vs Pull
As I mentioned, I'd like to bring Push more in line with Pull. Reducing the arc that Push affects is one example/consideration for doing this.
4) Grip vs Lightning
This is a more fickle case but I think is definitely something to consider (especially in the cases of level 1 of each). Lightning 1 basically accomplishes what Grip 1 does without having a build-up to it. It does have the drawback of not being able to use other powers afterward but at that point, the enemy could probably be dead already.
5) Deflect
Possibly freeing up a power slot and re-allocating Deflect's effects between the different levels of Saber Defense (combining level 1 of Deflect with Defense, 2 of Deflect with 2 of Defense, etc).

There's a lot of things to consider but those are the main points of interest. Also, just to be clear, I haven't looked at possible differing costs of abilities yet since this is all still in the early early stages of being changed.

With that said, I'd like to introduce what I've dubbed "Force Attunement". On the gameplay side, this would be a new ability that would serve the purpose of allowing you to give up saber defense in exchange for enhancements/tweaks to the powers that you choose in your build instead of simply losing your saber (or having one just because you don't have anywhere else you want to put the points) and having the option of a few (more) powers at higher levels. On the development side, this would allow for easier changing/adjusting of things like Push's arc, charge-ups (or lack thereof) for powers, and so on (yay more bugs features). I'm currently thinking of having Attunement be an inverse relationship with Saber Defense. This means if you had level 3 in Defense, you wouldn't be able to get any in Attunement. If you had level 1 Defense, you could have level 2 Attunement. Basically, an easily visualization of sacrificing your saber skills for better Force attributes (a similar system to how you can only have certain styles mixed together).

Spoiler: Attunement Details

Level 1:

• Would increase the arc of Push (basically putting it to how it is now vs the reduction for non-Attunement builds)
• Slightly increased FP pool or regeneration
• Possible alternative (or maybe even the explicit) way of unlocking Repulse (maybe even just as the alternative to Jump 3 as a requirement)

Level 2:

• Less FP drain from being shot
• Minor damage decreased from light weapon shots via blocking with melee
  
• Increased FP pool or regeneration (separate/increasing upon level 1's stuff)
  
• Blue's Force Focus perk (2x faster on others, 2x slower on yourself unless the other person has the same attribute; or maybe split the perk in half between Attunement 2 and 3)
• Lightning block would now drain FP/halt FP regen (could depend on Lightning level as well)
  
• Able to displace (this doesn't inherently mean knocking them down) saberists with Push/Pull/Repulse regardless of them blocking/FB level/etc (would quite likely be adjusting Force Focus to work properly) in tandem with Attunement
• Maybe allow limited cases of simultaneous power usage (depends on engine limits though)

Level 3:

• Any power used on saberists would drain FP regardless of FB/Focus (wouldn't necessarily affect them, just make it easier to do things afterward, more or less)
• Shots blocked via melee would have further damage decreases (no blocking projectile rifle shots with your fists though, sorry)
  
• Specific bonuses depending on the levels of other powers, such as:
  • Force Block 3 would allow for modified threshholds for when powers could affect you
  • Mind Trick 3 allows for immunity to Sense while meditating; also possibly make it so that MT shares invisibility with teammates within a certain radius of the user
  • Lightning 3 + Force Block 2 or 3 would deal less damage to teammates
  • Lightning 2+ catches Wookiees on fire after a duration if they don't have Health 3
    
  • Repulse would affect Wookiees differently depending on their Strength levels (Strength 2 = get knocked down but maybe have to only have Strength 1 to play pinball with them)

• More cases of simultaneous powers being used

Level 1 Attunement might seem underwhelming compared to the others but remember that you'd be able to have it with Defense 2 at the same time. I also have other ideas for various combinations but those start to get a bit too complex for the early stages... Now, for powers and possibilities for what to do with/to them.

Spoiler: Push

• Reduction of effective arc
• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this) vs players (would still affect projectiles/grenades within the arc as it does now)
• Knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Spoiler: Pull

• Possible (small) range reduction
• Add an arc similar to Push rather than be solely single target
  
• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this)
• Disarm/knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Spoiler: Grip

Level 1:

• Has visual/auditory indicator (entire process)
  
• Requires walking while activating and maintaining
  
• Forces target to walking speed and greatly reduces rate of fire (or maybe only allows primary shots or something along those lines)
• Deals __ damage per tick

Level 2:

• Has audio indicator for full process, visual only when it's nearing completion
• Can run while activating but forced to walk while maintaining
• Immobilizes target but still allows them to do very slow return fire
• Deals __ damage per tick

Level 3:

• Only has audio indicator
• Can run while activating but walk while maintaining (somewhat faster than default speed)
• Allows for lifting the target into the air and moving them, no retaliation allowed (except for powers from Jedi)
• Deals __ damage per tick (probably will kill or nearly kill a Jedi from full health if Grip lasts entire duration)

Spoiler: Lightning

Level 1:

• __ damage per tick (minimal)
  
• Forced to slowly walk while maintaining (capped duration, maybe?)
  
• Target can use low rate of fire shots while being affected

Level 2:

• __ damage per tick (depends on single or double stream)
  
• Can run while doing single stream, normal walk speed with double stream
  
• Can do two forward streams from melee (different animation than current 2H stream)
• Target can't fire while being affected and is minimally slowed (between running and walking speed)

Level 3:

• __ damage per tick
  
• More damage if used in melee (current 2H lightning)
  
• If target is knocked down, does further increased damage
• If maintained with a saber, forced to walk
• If maintained in melee, forced to speed between running and walking
  
• Target can't fire and is slowed while affected (walking or less than walking speed)

Remember, none of this is set in stone. I think that's a good start for now though, whew.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

If this style rework gets used, why not just tie saber deflect to cyan style? That way, you have a visual indicator when facing a saberist who has a significant bonus vs guns (Q3 or deflect). IMO it would be silly to have a style's entire perk be dependent on buying another ability. If cyan is the only style that can accurately deflect shots, it would also be easier to balance when making deflect tweaks in the future.

Thats would be stupid, i like to deflect but i dont want get tied to one style and if you cant deflect accurately with other styles its no use just a waste of fp.
Deflect is fine as it is now.
The costs for two styles are even now expensive, i dont want to buy an additional style only for deflect.

 

[Megatron (The Shredder)]

Will the charging for force push and pull have a visual indicator on your own personal HUD to indicate which level of charging you're at before you release it?
Will you be able to charge up push and pull before targetting an enemy or do you have to aim at a target to charge up your push/pull?

I'm a bit confused on how you ordered the Attunement. Is level 1 when you have defense 1 or defense 3?

 

[Tempest]

I don't like how you say force push overshadows force pull in terms of reward because push has a huge vulnerability window after use and generally pull 3 is more effective to take out targets even without knockdown because it closes the distance. Push 3 sure is easier to use at low level but when aiming pull 3 is not a problem for the saberist, pull 3 is way more effective to score kills and push is only useful to defend (increase distance with enemies) or repel projectiles, and alot more risky due to the vulnerability window when you're facing good gunners.

terms of ease of usage and reward (in general or vs varying levels of effort/thought required) while still costing roughly the same amount of points in a build

Pull basically ends up with knocking down/disarming one person (assuming aim is proper) per usage with a short vulnerability window. Push can knock down any number of people, projectiles (also from around corners with the silliest angles of aim), grenades, etc per usage (with very minimal aim) albeit with a longer vulnerability window (which smarter players will work to minimalize anyway; staying behind cover and then popping out briefly to push a grenade as one example). Same point cost (except Push 2 is 2 less points than Pull 2 for some reason?) and same FP amount per use. Does that not seem like the risk/effort vs reward is skewed a tad?

That said i like the ideas you're proposing with push, namely charging and reducing arc of effectiveness.
As for pull, charging might be fine but increasing the arc i would definitely say no, pull is quite strong enough as it is.

What if Pull could have an arc increase but the knockdown/disarm depended on targeting still?

As for grip/lightning, in order to differentiate them better, i think you should rather consider splitting stun and damage effects between them rather than just increasing them for both with levels. Stun would be grip's main reward while damage would be lightning's.

If we took the damage away from Grip, giving Speed (since that was a point of a further down comment) to Sith and that to Jedi would be a 1:1 trade.

As for attunement, there are cool ideas (most of which aren't new btw), but i think you should mostly focus on buffing force powers against saberists, this is what FWs need most at the moment, they are already quite strong enough against most gunners and might even need nerfs in that area (except wook/SBD/Deka ofc). So in this regard, ideas like increasing push arc, buffing force focus, allowing displacement vs FB or even saber blocking, and even the ability to drain the opponent's FP with lightning (or maybe even other powers), probably all have some place in the game (maybe even increased FP regen but only with saber defense 0 though). As for melee block reducing gun damage, i already tried that and it was rejected in beta so probably no. Simultaneous force power use, uh i dunno about that, sounds kinda OP.

The general idea is to make it so that a Force spec is more consistent/less gimmicky with its place in a team. I'm curious as to what the circumstances with the melee block vs gun damage were. Was it something that always happened or required giving stuff up (i.e. having to have Defense 0)?

On the other hand, why aren't you considering the possibility of adding speed to Sith and another force power to jedi that would help them be a little bit more offensive ? Of course this would require alot of balancing cause speed siths OP etc. but ultimately you'd address the large difference in power that there is currently between jedi FW and sith FW, and it would help addressing the weakness of FW against heavy classes to some extent as well.

Rebalancing powers is a pretty big difference compared to giving powers to the opposite team's saberist (not just class balance, but map balance too).

Question. Are you supposed to not be able to superpush(pull and push) ARCs with dex3? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, i thought it depends on the amount of stamina said ARC has at the moment but idk

It might have to do with Dex 3 Arc being able to recover faster than others.

Why though?
They are annoying campers that pick up lone targets and add nothing to the team.

That's kind of the point of a lot of the things I've mentioned.

 

[Vitéz]

I've read the suggestions in the opening post, and I have "doubts" about them. This post is focusing on stuffs what I dont like, and there are a lot of them, so this post is kinda depressive. Please note that these opinions are my own, and its possible that they're all wrong. Of course I think they are not, so... I just want to say that I'd like to keep things civilized.

Spoiler: Attunement Details

Slightly increased FP pool or regeneration

- this is not a question, since FP pool affects Force Block, and FB is good as it is, so it has to be increased FP regeneration

Possible alternative (or maybe even the explicit) way of unlocking Repulse (maybe even just as the alternative to Jump 3 as a requirement)

- if Repulse requires Jump/Push/Pull lvl3, having a different ability couldnt possibly change this... "rule"... so this doesnt make sense

Less FP drain from being shot

- this doesnt make any sense in the first place... I mean the current FP drain if you are not defensing... this whole thing should be disabled on all Jedi... why should a Jedi lose FP if he is not defending? the saber defense is what (should) drain(s) FP, not the shots... there is a difference

Minor damage decreased from light weapon shots via blocking with melee

- it doesnt make any sense... give the Jedi a similiar defensing ability what we had in KotOR II (we blocked and deflected blaster shots with our hands), even make it a passive defense ability which requires FP to work and could be turned on/off (replacing saber throw or slap), but damage reduction doesnt make any sense... neither in the current MB version, nor in this suggestion

Blue's Force Focus perk

- FW is a hit+run guerilla tactic, the user is mainly camping... giving the player an ability what makes it harder for others to Force Focus the player is not necessary... the faster FF on others is a good idea

Lightning block would now drain FP/halt FP regen (could depend on Lightning level as well)

- Lightning should always drain FP... Lightning is more like a weapon, its ammo is the FP. If the target Jedi uses his/her lightsaber to block the lightning, than it must drain FP... having active Force Block / enough FP should negate FP drain to keep balance tho... but the main problem with this is that an idea like this would turn Lightning into a Force Drain v2... and the FP Drain is the key why this ability is not available in Open mode (as I see)

Able to displace (this doesn't inherently mean knocking them down) saberists with Push/Pull/Repulse regardless of them blocking/FB level/etc

- very bad idea... there are side areas on some maps such DotF Generator room... areas which are not part of the main maps, but are great places for time wasters... dont give these time wasters a better chance to survive with this

Maybe allow limited cases of simultaneous power usage (depends on engine limits though)

- unless new animations are created for this, it'd look as odd as the current "knocked down ARC Trooper who shoots"... and I'm not sure this'd worth the effort, since using more powers requires more FP, which is capped... IMO it'd be a better and an easier way to give a buff to these players to reduce the cooldown between using Force abilities... it'd give them the ability to react faster on combat situations

Any power used on saberists would drain FP regardless of FB/Focus

- this will turn all Force powers into Force Drain, what is a very bad idea

Specific bonuses depending on the levels of other powers, such as:

- rising the FP cap of the Force defense of Force Block 3 is unnecessary
- the area-MT idea sounds great on paper, but Sense could negate this effect completely ingame, because 1 missing enemy is OK, but when half of the enemy team is not visible on the radar, than the Sith will know what's happening... + Sith would also require a team buffing ability in this case
- the idea to lower the Lightning damage on teammates with FB doesnt make any sense
- the burning Wook idea is a yes and a no... because the idea makes sense, but the requirement of another passive is not...
- as far as I know, the Wookiee Force Block is a Rebel team compsensation for the Droideka vehicle immunity... dont misunderstand, the Wook FB doesnt make any sense, but I think its required to maintain balance between teams... if you create an exploit for Wook FB, than one should be created for Droideka too... and if the vehicle problem of Droideka could be solved, than Wooks shouldnt have Force Block at all... so no, the idea is not good

Spoiler: Push

Reduction of effective arc

- I love how everyone thinks that this change will help those careless gunners who dont know how to use the classes, and how to play against classes, but it wont... I dont like the idea, but dont really care, because it wont make any difference ingame... it'll be strange for the players on the first week, but they'll adapt quickly and everything will remain the same

Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness vs players
Knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

- Too few information about this. Is that mean that a fully charged Push will knock down walking players too? Because it'd be OP in some cases. Or a fully charged Push will be the same as nowdays? Because that'd be a ridiculous nerf. Will charging disable the Saber Defense like all other Force ability does? Will charging requires to stand still, or forces to player to walk, or the player will be allowed to run?

Spoiler: Pull

- everything I said on Push are valid here too
- + will area Pull affect weapon pull too?

Spoiler: Grip

If you wish to implement these changes into the game, than I suggest to simply remove Grip from Open mode. Grip has a sound and a visual indicator, it requires channelling to activate it, and it disables all defense of the user. If you wish to further nerf this ability, than simply remove it from Open mode, and restore Force Speed as a neutral ability. I'm not kidding, the suggested ideas are horrible. MBII is a team based game mode, if the players dont play as a team, then its their problem, not a balance problem. No nerf will ever save these players, until the ability will be nerfed into useless. The suggested ideas would make Grip a near-to-useless ability. So it'd be better to restore the b17 Grip and make it available only in FA.

Spoiler: Lightning

Everything I said at Grip is basically valid here too. The suggested ideas are super nerf to the skill... dont know which "neutral" ability could replace Lightning. But let me be sarcastic tho: A280 rapid fire mode... its a primary fire as we all know. Or Bowcaster charged shot. But we can say Pistol 3 primary fire as well. Will the gunners allowed to kill the Force user when Grip and Lightning is used? Whats the point of using them then? This is valid for Grip too.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

• Reduction of effective arc

• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this) vs players (would still affect projectiles/grenades within the arc as it does now)

• Knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Oh boi, if push actually gets changed like that... saberist tears will cause another Great Flood, I'm sure. I mean, when flinch got introduced, noobish sith/jedi
lost one of 2 ways to get ez kills. But they still have the other option, the trusty Force Push. However, if Push gets toned down as well, the butthurt may get real.

 

[Stassin]

Pull basically ends up with knocking down/disarming one person (assuming aim is proper) per usage with a short vulnerability window. Push can knock down any number of people, projectiles (also from around corners with the silliest angles of aim), grenades, etc per usage (with very minimal aim) albeit with a longer vulnerability window (which smarter players will work to minimalize anyway; staying behind cover and then popping out briefly to push a grenade as one example). Same point cost (except Push 2 is 2 less points than Pull 2 for some reason?) and same FP amount per use. Does that not seem like the risk/effort vs reward is skewed a tad?

No, push and pull simply have different roles. Pull is much better when it comes to rushing gunners to kill them while push is much better for teamwork and defense and both powers aren't easy to use in these respective roles. Sure push is easier to use when you're rushing gunners who don't walk but against good enough gunners it becomes extremely risky and pull is much better.

If you're looking to nerf push against bad gunners then perhaps you are indeed going in the right direction without affecting "competitive" play too much. On the other hand pull is in a good place and doesn't need buffs.

 

[Szunti]

I don't like pull. So cheap. One "mistake" (not like running sometimes as gunner would be a mistake) and you lose your weapon for the whole round. Would be fair only if saberists couldn't make them disappear.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

If we took the damage away from Grip, giving Speed (since that was a point of a further down comment) to Sith and that to Jedi would be a 1:1 trade.

This would be good. Alternatively, give grip the drowning HP effect (drains HP while in use, slowly recover lost HP after grip is released). This could still allow grip to be used to finish off low HP enemies or very briefly soften them for a teammate.

If grip does no dmg or minimal dmg, perhaps high level grip could act similar to Kylo Ren's stasis power (or attunement could turn grip into stasis).

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I don't like pull. So cheap. One "mistake" (not like running sometimes as gunner would be a mistake) and you lose your weapon for the whole round. Would be fair only if saberists couldn't make them disappear.

Then dont make mistakes...it seems you just want another cheap nerf to benefit from your own faults.

 

[Tempest]

Will the charging for force push and pull have a visual indicator on your own personal HUD to indicate which level of charging you're at before you release it?
Will you be able to charge up push and pull before targetting an enemy or do you have to aim at a target to charge up your push/pull?

I'm a bit confused on how you ordered the Attunement. Is level 1 when you have defense 1 or defense 3?

There would be some kind of indicator, yes. I would probably have it be charge up -> when you release to activate, effects depend on the level of the power and requirements for each specifically (i.e. Push could have its effect vs grenades remain the same with the area increasing based on charge duration while effect vs gunners could have the distance of knockback and whether or not those affected get knocked down/just displaced based on both charge duration and targeting). Also, to clarify on Attunement and its relationship with Defense; If you have level 3 Defense, you wouldn't be allowed any points into Attunement. If you want level 1 Attunement, you would be limited to level 2 Defense. If you wanted level 2 Attunement, you would be limited to level 1 Defense. That make sense?

I've read the suggestions in the opening post, and I have "doubts" about them. This post is focusing on stuffs what I dont like, and there are a lot of them, so this post is kinda depressive. Please note that these opinions are my own, and its possible that they're all wrong. Of course I think they are not, so... I just want to say that I'd like to keep things civilized.

Any thoughts are welcome (as long as they aren't just blatant flaming/are constructive, of course)!

Spoiler: Attunement Details

1) - this is not a question, since FP pool affects Force Block, and FB is good as it is, so it has to be increased FP regeneration
2) - if Repulse requires Jump/Push/Pull lvl3, having a different ability couldnt possibly change this... "rule"... so this doesnt make sense
3)- this doesnt make any sense in the first place... I mean the current FP drain if you are not defensing... this whole thing should be disabled on all Jedi... why should a Jedi lose FP if he is not defending? the saber defense is what (should) drain(s) FP, not the shots... there is a difference
4)- it doesnt make any sense... give the Jedi a similiar defensing ability what we had in KotOR II (we blocked and deflected blaster shots with our hands), even make it a passive defense ability which requires FP to work and could be turned on/off (replacing saber throw or slap), but damage reduction doesnt make any sense... neither in the current MB version, nor in this suggestion
5) - FW is a hit+run guerilla tactic, the user is mainly camping... giving the player an ability what makes it harder for others to Force Focus the player is not necessary... the faster FF on others is a good idea
6)- Lightning should always drain FP... Lightning is more like a weapon, its ammo is the FP. If the target Jedi uses his/her lightsaber to block the lightning, than it must drain FP... having active Force Block / enough FP should negate FP drain to keep balance tho... but the main problem with this is that an idea like this would turn Lightning into a Force Drain v2... and the FP Drain is the key why this ability is not available in Open mode (as I see)
7)- very bad idea... there are side areas on some maps such DotF Generator room... areas which are not part of the main maps, but are great places for time wasters... dont give these time wasters a better chance to survive with this
8)- unless new animations are created for this, it'd look as odd as the current "knocked down ARC Trooper who shoots"... and I'm not sure this'd worth the effort, since using more powers requires more FP, which is capped... IMO it'd be a better and an easier way to give a buff to these players to reduce the cooldown between using Force abilities... it'd give them the ability to react faster on combat situations

- this will turn all Force powers into Force Drain, what is a very bad idea
9)- rising the FP cap of the Force defense of Force Block 3 is unnecessary
10) - the area-MT idea sounds great on paper, but Sense could negate this effect completely ingame, because 1 missing enemy is OK, but when half of the enemy team is not visible on the radar, than the Sith will know what's happening... + Sith would also require a team buffing ability in this case
11) - the idea to lower the Lightning damage on teammates with FB doesnt make any sense
12) - the burning Wook idea is a yes and a no... because the idea makes sense, but the requirement of another passive is not...
13) - as far as I know, the Wookiee Force Block is a Rebel team compsensation for the Droideka vehicle immunity... dont misunderstand, the Wook FB doesnt make any sense, but I think its required to maintain balance between teams... if you create an exploit for Wook FB, than one should be created for Droideka too... and if the vehicle problem of Droideka could be solved, than Wooks shouldnt have Force Block at all... so no, the idea is not good

Spoiler: Attunement response

1) FB threshholds can be adjusted if needed. However, the idea is that even without different threshholds for FB working/not working, an increased FP pool would allow for some extra breathing room before the user starts getting into the "danger zone" of being pushed/pulled/etc by enemy saberists.
2) I think you're missing that I could change it so that Repulse could require Jump/Push/Pull 3 to it being enabled if you have that combination or having Attunement + Push/Pull 3 so that the points spent on Jump 3 could be allocated elsewhere (given Jump 3 helps for Force stuff, I personally prefer Jump 2 in a lot of cases so it bugs me to have to spend the points in 3 when I decide to mess around with Repulse).
3) Well, I personally think it makes sense (especially with the argument for damage reduction being a result of saberists "channeling" the Force to protect themselves or whatever, but that's its own discussion) for saberists to lose FP when shot. I understand your reasoning, though.
4) Same point as my #3
5) Noted but do remember that Attunement isn't exclusive from having a saber, thus the person that's being Force Focused wouldn't necessarily be camping/hiding constantly.
6) Note that the difference between what I've suggested and Drain (at least with how it works in the base game) is that Drain can return resources to the one using it whereas this would only remove FP from the target.
7) That's more of an issue with people wanting to waste time/why admins deal with people timewasting vs an issue with mechanic design(s).
8) There would indeed be some animation adjustments. Also, try not to confuse the cooldown of the powers with the vulnerability windows (though in a lot of cases, they're both at the same time I guess) they put on the user (Lightning makes you vulnerable while using and then has a cooldown for power usage afterward).
9) Same thing as my #1
10) Sense doesn't negate it. It's a soft counter (for the Sith, not for everyone else that is mind tricked) which is good. Having something for Sith in exchange is understandable. Also, this would allow for Jedi to be more "offensive" without giving them a purely offensive power (@Stassin).
11) Lowering the damage would both be symbolic of the Sith having mastery over his power as well as allow for the Sith to use his increased abilities without being punished as badly for it in the event a teammate gets caught in the radius (though that's the fault of both the Sith and/or the teammate).
12) Understandable about passive stuff.
13) I'm not sure I'd have Wook be a 1:1 team correlation to Deka (it's usually more akin to SBD, in my opinion and those of others that I talk to). Note that bypassing the FB for Wook wouldn't automatically make the Wook defenseless vs Sith but more be along the lines of having a minor way for a Sith to actually do something to Wooks besides slightly annoy them with Lightning.

Spoiler: Push

1)- I love how everyone thinks that this change will help those careless gunners who dont know how to use the classes, and how to play against classes, but it wont... I dont like the idea, but dont really care, because it wont make any difference ingame... it'll be strange for the players on the first week, but they'll adapt quickly and everything will remain the same
2)- Too few information about this. Is that mean that a fully charged Push will knock down walking players too? Because it'd be OP in some cases. Or a fully charged Push will be the same as nowdays? Because that'd be a ridiculous nerf. Will charging disable the Saber Defense like all other Force ability does? Will charging requires to stand still, or forces to player to walk, or the player will be allowed to run?

Spoiler: Push response

1) I think you might be misunderstanding what people are thinking. People are thinking it would have Push be less of a "push and forget" (pun intended) type of thing (for the most part) and switch to actually having to be semi-mindful of how you use it in every scenario (hopefully).
2) There would still be counters to Push/Pull as there are now. Given, I haven't figured out the exact details of how the charge up would be implemented per level since I wanted to see how the idea was received first.

Spoiler: Pull

1) - everything I said on Push are valid here too
2) - + will area Pull affect weapon pull too?

Spoiler: Pull response

1) Same thoughts as well in regards to Pull
2) My thought (assuming Pull got an increased area in whatever way) would be that displacement would apply to everyone within the radius but the disarming/knockdown could still remain based on targeting.

Spoiler: Grip

If you wish to implement these changes into the game, than I suggest to simply remove Grip from Open mode. Grip has a sound and a visual indicator, it requires channeling to activate it, and it disables all defense of the user. If you wish to further nerf this ability, than simply remove it from Open mode, and restore Force Speed as a neutral ability. I'm not kidding, the suggested ideas are horrible. MBII is a team based game mode, if the players dont play as a team, then its their problem, not a balance problem. No nerf will ever save these players, until the ability will be nerfed into useless. The suggested ideas would make Grip a near-to-useless ability. So it'd be better to restore the b17 Grip and make it available only in FA.

Spoiler: Grip response

I actually don't know how b17 Grip was since I started right at the end of b17/start of b18. I'm not looking to nerf Grip by default. I'm trying to make it more consistent and less binary in general. Notice there's no changed numbers/FP usage for it yet. Honestly, looking at it, there's not really a reason to call it a nerf other than forcing level 1 usage to make the Sith walk and allowing for minimal return fire by the target in 1 and (even less return fire possibility) in level 2.

Spoiler: Lightning

Everything I said at Grip is basically valid here too. The suggested ideas are super nerf to the skill... dont know which "neutral" ability could replace Lightning. But let me be sarcastic tho: A280 rapid fire mode... its a primary fire as we all know. Or Bowcaster charged shot. But we can say Pistol 3 primary fire as well. Will the gunners allowed to kill the Force user when Grip and Lightning is used? Whats the point of using them then? This is valid for Grip too.

Spoiler: Lightning response

Again, the only nerf is really aimed at level 1 (because neither Grip or Lightning at level 1 as a 4 point power should be that strong, honestly). The rest are actually probably in the realms of buffs..

 

[chicknman]

I think adding a force wall ability would be a cool addition to the force whore arsenal. Any good gunner sees a force whore as a free kill simply because they have no way of blocking blaster fire. This would not only create a defense mechanism for the vulnerable Jedi/sith, but would also create a viable supporting role as well. You could have different levels of force wall that vary in duration/area of effect/blocking ability. A higher level in force wall could result in the wall deflecting blaster fire, or give any gunner behind the wall invulnerability to force powers. It would also encourage more strategic gameplay and cooperation between force whores and gunners.

Edit: Another tier of the force wall could allow for increased blaster projectile speeds as they pass through the wall.

After reading Gumba's post on his complaint of the force whore role, the right direction would seem to grant it more supportive abilities and recreate the force whore persona. Essentially the "medic/healing/support" class. If the devs are up to creating more new and interesting force abilities while balancing them around core gameplay mechanics, it would create dynamic and exciting gameplay opportunities, and fill the need for a support class that so many have inquired about.

 

[Vitéz]

Wow, I have to say - based on my past experience - I'm surprised that I got an answer like that from a dev, @Tempest. Thank you. It doesnt mean I agree with everything you said tho.

Spoiler: Attunement Details

1,9) If you change the Force Block to fit for the bigger FP pool than I guess it'll be fine. Anyway, you're right.
2) I did not forget about that the requirement could change, thats my whole point. If there's a special ability (Repulse) which requires certain elements (Jump, Push, Pull), than if you change requirement elements, you'll get something else, but not what you want (Repulse). Its like cooking. Of course there are always alternatives but if MB logic says that Jump is required to perform Repulse, than you cant replace it with a passive ability, what has nothing to do with levitation. That is what I tried to say.
3-4) I see what you try to say, but IMO thats not how the Force works. I'm sure there are some examples in Legends for this, but as far as I see, Open mode represents the common Jedi, and common Jedi cant do that.
5) Yes, this Force user dont necessarily camp, but lets face it: they do. In most cases, they camp, wait for the moment, and do a hit+run move. Thats why I dont like the idea to give them a defense boost, especially if they get the Force pool buff too.
6) I know, but I dont think that the "healing" part which is the problem in MB. FP is an ammo to perform abilities in the base game, losing FP is not fatal. Its totally different in MB: its not just an ammo to perform abilities, but an ammo for defense. Losing FP is fatal in MB. IMO thats the problem with Drain in MB, so this is the reason why I dont like this idea.
7) 9/10 problems with this game is player based, not balance based. But we cant simply deal with this with the "L2P" answer. I just say that I think adding a feature which gives more possibility for these time wasters has more like a disadvantage than benefit for the community.
8) I did not talk about the vulnerability window in that point, and I'm not confusing it with the power CD. I tried to say that (especially without larger FP pool) the player is still limited to the FP, so using certain powers together (like Lightning/Grip and anything else) could be a problem. On the other hand, reducing the power CD would give the user the ability to react faster, for example activating Push right after using Lightning, when the player notice that a rocket is incoming. Of course both ideas could be implemented, since we're talked about different things.
10) I know, Sense doesnt negate MT, but it can counter area MT, thats what I tried to say. Let me say an example at this point. Most maps have 2 routes (lets call them main and side). The current MT makes only the user invisible. If the enemy Sith uses Sense on main, the Sith probably wont notice a single missing player. But if more players are missing / not visible on main, and its known that there are visible players on side, than its also known that the missing players are actually on main, but they're invisible. That's what I tried to say. Thats why I think this wouldnt work with low player number (like in 5 v 5). With more players (like 12 v 12) I have doubts about the cooperation of the players, what is near to zero. The suggested ability is something what requires cooperation to be effective. Otherwise it'd be just annoying ingame.
11) You didnt persuade me with this. Mastery means that the Dark Lord of the Sith doesnt shock his/her own people, not that his/her own people are not so badly shocked. And Mastery is called player skill in MB. So I have to say that it'd help careless players, what I dont like.
13) It doesnt really matter how we pair the classes at this point. These are/were the classes with some kind of anti-knockdown abilities/attributes what we have/had in Open mode: SBD, Droideka & Wook, ARC Trooper. Dexterity is changed, so this is not really valid now, but this is how stuffs worked before things started to change in favor of the "careless players". In favour of this (original) logic, I dont like an idea to give an exploit to Wook Strength. Especially since you only mentioned Wooks, but not SBDs.

Spoiler: Push

1) Of course its possible that I misunderstand what people are thinking. My problem is that in the past years, the players have cried about how powerful the Jedi class is, so they cant beat a "noob" Jedi (that is a really important part: *"noob"* Jedi". Both Jedi and Gunner classes have been changed over and over, all in favour to balance Jedi v Gunner combat... so to make Jedi weaker / Gunner stronger. After all these years, the Gunners still cant kill the *"noob"* Jedi, based on forum experience. I have to ask: is it really a balance problem? I think its not. Because if it would be, than this problem would've been solved years ago. Thats why I said that it doesnt matter you reduce the arc of Push or not, nothing will change: the Jedi will Push as usually, the Gunner wont walk, so the Gunner will be knocked down, and be killed. Of course its possible that my theory is totally BS, but... based on the past years, I think I'm right. So as I said, I'm not against this idea, I just say that IMO nothing will change.
2) I'm not worried about Push couldnt be countered, my concern is that a charging part could be a huge buff, a huge nerf, or an unnecessary change. Since the effect of Push wont change, I think the result will be one of the three things I just said, and none of them is good.

Spoiler: Grip

B17 grip was like base Grip... or was it in b16? Dont really remember, I'm talking about base Grip, thats how stuffs worked in MB years ago. It was OP, so the Grip got an activation lock / channeling period to balance this. It also got a sound, what is still balanced, I mean Grenades also have sounds, Jedi know when to expect Grenade, so its fair if the Gunner also knows when to expect Grip. The visual indicator is a joke in my opinion, because it helps those amateurs who dont know the sound effects of Open mode. Giving Grip three nerfs on low level is something what I dont agree with. And if we dont call nerf that the activation and maintaining it requires walking and the target can actually shoot back on low levels, than I dont know what ability nerfing is. Honestly, would you ever use your suggested Grip on lvl1 or on lvl2? I know I wouldnt. I know you didnt write point changes yet, but lvl3 is basically unchanged. The current lvl3 requires 27 points. Your suggested lvl1 and lvl2 has a fatal exploit because of Gunners are allowed to shoot back to the Sith, who has his/her defense de-activated because of using a Force power. 27 points to get a usable Grip is off the limits. And its obviuos that this 27 points couldnt be lowered on lvl3, because that level is nearly the same as nowdays, so there's no reason to make it cheaper. Grip will never be beaten in 1 v 1 by a Gunner, and this change is obvoiusly in favor of 1 v 1 combat, despite the fact that this is a *team based* game mode. Thats why I suggested to simply drop Grip and give back Speed to Sith as compensation.

Spoiler: Lightning

I admit, I didnt read the Lightning lvl2 and lvl3 properly, I'm sorry about that. But the suggested lvl1 idea basically makes lvl1 Lightning useless. I know, the current lvl1 is OP, but turning it into useless is not the solution. I dont know what the solution could be, maybe skipping lvl1 in Open mode, and starting with lvl2... but if the player cant attack the target after lvl1 Lightning, than the ~10 HP (to be more accurate ~10 shield) damage is not worth to sacrifice the saber defense, especially in team v team fight (what is basically the core of this game mode).

 

[SomeGuy]

How about making Push 3 and Pull 3 force whore exclusive powers. What I mean by this is erase the current level 1 powers and make them be like level 2, same point cost as current 2, and the new level 2 like current 3, same cost as current 3. Obviously the new level 3 powers would be more powerful somehow.

Now new level 3 powers would cost more but then could be much more powerful, giving up some of the light/dark specific powers in exchange. Also this could constitute a buff for Repulse to work Vs everyone, even works and SBD, and walking or booking saberist. I don't mean super insta kill but maybe just normal knock down.

Then the new level 2 powers can still do the current super push because of their mechanics.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

The thing is, i remember not being able to superpush ARCs with Dex3 just to be suddenly able to superpush them the very next round, and i'm 100% sure they didn't change their build.

Either they ran out of stamina or there's a brief window of opportunity.

Don't recall ever being superpushed as an arc. Or using superpush on a dex arc. Then again, I hardly use superpush and its rarely used tbh. Repulse is more popular and even thats more for style.

 

[Szunti]

What's the reason behind adding FP draining for lightning? You still need a gunner to finish off the jedi without dueling. If you have a gunner with you, than it's easy to kill the jedi already. Maybe you don't want to see your lightning countered so easily and doing nothing? How frustating would it be if you had only a couple chance to use it and it blew up in your face? (rockets)

 

[Spaghetti]

As for attunement, there are cool ideas (most of which aren't new btw), but i think you should mostly focus on buffing force powers against saberists, this is what FWs need most at the moment, they are already quite strong enough against most gunners and might even need nerfs in that area (except wook/SBD/Deka ofc). So in this regard, ideas like increasing push arc, buffing force focus, allowing displacement vs FB or even saber blocking, and even the ability to drain the opponent's FP with lightning (or maybe even other powers), probably all have some place in the game (maybe even increased FP regen but only with saber defense 0 though). As for melee block reducing gun damage, i already tried that and it was rejected in beta so probably no. Simultaneous force power use, uh i dunno about that, sounds kinda OP.

The general idea is to make it so that a Force spec is more consistent/less gimmicky with its place in a team. I'm curious as to what the circumstances with the melee block vs gun damage were. Was it something that always happened or required giving stuff up (i.e. having to have Defense 0)?

If I recall correctly it auto blocked if you were holding melee block (and drain force each time you were hit until force is depleted). My own opinion was of it being effectively useless due to the vicious cycle of being practically immobile to guard, and then drained of your only defensive / offensive resource as a force whore if you continue guarding. At the time we were also building up to getting v1 released so this was the kind of gimmicky feature that was easily pushed aside.

If you were to make Tutaminis a useful ability it would need to be reworked from when it was last tested. Maybe make it passive so you can run and otherwise be unencumbered, but increase the force points drained so it's much less effective than blocking with a lightsaber. Alternately make players hold a key when they want it active and have a slow force drain and a smaller additional drain for each shot blocked. That would make it distinct from lightsaber blocking while requiring more skill.

 

[Tempest]

What's the reason behind adding FP draining for lightning? You still need a gunner to finish off the jedi without dueling. If you have a gunner with you, than it's easy to kill the jedi already. Maybe you don't want to see your lightning countered so easily and doing nothing? How frustating would it be if you had only a couple chance to use it and it blew up in your face? (rockets)

I was actually watching episode 3 last night and it actually did some good demonstrations of how Force "battling" should be more akin to. It takes active effort/stamina to block Lightning when Yoda gets it shot at him by Sidious (when he doesn't actively try to block it, he gets thrown around/stunned temporarily). One handed Lightning from Dooku got blocked by Obi Wan in episode 2 fairly easily but the 2H stuff that Sidious does is a different story. Maybe the 2H/level 3 Lightning should be the only one that drains FP while blocking it? Food for thought.

How about making Push 3 and Pull 3 force whore exclusive powers. What I mean by this is erase the current level 1 powers and make them be like level 2, same point cost as current 2, and the new level 2 like current 3, same cost as current 3. Obviously the new level 3 powers would be more powerful somehow.

Now new level 3 powers would cost more but then could be much more powerful, giving up some of the light/dark specific powers in exchange. Also this could constitute a buff for Repulse to work Vs everyone, even works and SBD, and walking or booking saberist. I don't mean super insta kill but maybe just normal knock down.

Then the new level 2 powers can still do the current super push because of their mechanics.

Honestly, the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized how direct translations of base JKA powers and their scaling doesn't fit in with MB2. Straight up changing the powers to be similar to how Defense got changed (basically the same idea you had except the functionality got moved down a level for each tier and the 3rd became a cheaper bonus).

Wow, I have to say - based on my past experience - I'm surprised that I got an answer like that from a dev, @Tempest. Thank you. It doesnt mean I agree with everything you said tho.

I can't do a full answer to the new responses you added at this exact moment but I will address them ASAP (mobile OP).

If I recall correctly it auto blocked if you were holding melee block (and drain force each time you were hit until force is depleted). My own opinion was of it being effectively useless due to the vicious cycle of being practically immobile to guard, and then drained of your only defensive / offensive resource as a force whore if you continue guarding. At the time we were also building up to getting v1 released so this was the kind of gimmicky feature that was easily pushed aside.

If you were to make Tutaminis a useful ability it would need to be reworked from when it was last tested. Maybe make it passive so you can run and otherwise be unencumbered, but increase the force points drained so it's much less effective than blocking with a lightsaber. Alternately make players hold a key when they want it active and have a slow force drain and a smaller additional drain for each shot blocked. That would make it distinct from lightsaber blocking while requiring more skill.

Ah, that does sound a bit too strong. This wouldn't be a complete negation of damage in exchange for FP. It'd only be lowering the damage and still getting drained regardless. I do understand how it'd be kind of counter-intuitive but I was thinking more mid-long range usage while trying to advance into range of being able to use powers. The only problem I see with trying to bring in another power is that we're running out of slots (I think there was only one left with Attunement, if not having Attunement take the last one..) .

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I was actually watching episode 3 last night and it actually did some good demonstrations of how Force "battling" should be more akin to. It takes active effort/stamina to block Lightning when Yoda gets it shot at him by Sidious (when he doesn't actively try to block it, he gets thrown around/stunned temporarily). One handed Lightning from Dooku got blocked by Obi Wan in episode 2 fairly easily but the 2H stuff that Sidious does is a different story. Maybe the 2H/level 3 Lightning should be the only one that drains FP while blocking it? Food for thought.

I dont think that would be a good idea, jedis doesnt have anything to drain fp, why should sith get something like this?
It would be fair if they could get pushed or pulled then, like when they grip you, but this would make lightning easy to counter.
I like it how its is now, its still powerfull enough and useful depending on the situation.

 

[Tempest]

I dont think that would be a good idea, jedis doesnt have anything to drain fp, why should sith get something like this?
It would be fair if they could get pushed or pulled then, like when they grip you, but this would make lightning easy to counter.
I like it how its is now, its still powerfull enough and useful depending on the situation.

I didn't mean to imply it would only be for Lightning, just the difference between level 2 and 3 in that case.

 

[Tempest]

@Vitéz
Alright, I got a moment to sit and write out a proper response (off of mobile!).

Spoiler: Attunement

1) Think we covered pretty much everything for this now.
2) We could actually change it so that the logic worked that way. I'm not saying replace all of the requirements for Repulse with Attunement, just that if you had Jump 2 instead of 3, you could have Attunement 1 and still be able to Repulse.
3-4) Technically, the Protect power from base JKA functioned this way but it's all semantics mostly.
5) They do it because they generally have no other choice (whether to surprise gunners because if they're prepared, they can negate stuff like Push/Pull/Repulse or saberists that can block once they're aware of a threat). Pretty much all of Attunement is about having more choices .
6) I do understand the concern and I would like to point out that it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 cost:drain ratio (i.e. if a Push cost 20 FP, it might only take 10 from a blocking saberist or something along those lines). The idea behind it though is that as it stands now, Force usage is almost binary when it comes to other saberists (that's why Force Focus was added in the first place; stalemates of Jedi/Sith in a hallway was very common and that helped to break it up a bit).
7) Understood and noted.
8) Maybe we both misunderstood some things but I think we're on the same page now
10) Fair points. Player intuition plays a big part into things but even if a Sith had Sense, a break in visibility (even if they know they're still there and he has the capacity to render them visible again) can be a strong thing in itself.
11) I guess I should have used better wording, heh.
13) Well, SBDs/Dekas have a soft counter to Jedi's MT while Wook with Strength 3 (given there is a large point cost difference, obviously) is a hard counter to pretty much all of what a Sith can do (as far as Force goes).

Spoiler: Push

1) To be fair, Jedi/Sith have both been easy to play and more forgiving of mistakes made than gunners (i.e. if you're playing gunner and miss shots to drain FP from a saberist, they have enough breathing room to kill you without much worry, whereas if you consistently land shots, then you can damage them quickly enough to kill them (while still probably dying) whereas the Jedi/Sith just has to worry about having enough FP to survive being shot while killing the gunner, in a nutshell). The idea is to make Jedi/Sith have to put more effort/purpose into what they do or at least reward them accordingly for how much they do(n't) put in.
2) What I meant is that there would still be the same lines of thought when you're facing someone with Push. You walk/crouch to avoid getting knocked over, you can shoot them after they use it, etc. However, compare Push 3 to 2 and 1. The differences are extreme. There's very little scaling in effectiveness vs effort/risk aside from 2->3 letting you knock people over instead of just displacing them (same effort, just more points spent).

Spoiler: Grip

In its current form, it's basically suited to 1v1 as well except that the target has very few options (usually none at the point that it's activated). A 4 point power should not be an "I win" ability. That's how Grip 1 is now (in a lot of cases). If you had to keep maintaining it as it is currently, then it would make a lot more sense but given you can just activate->release and the target is pseudo-stuck while you're free to do whatever is a huge problem. The point is that you should be investing into level 2 or 3 for it to actually be a WEAPON, rather than an imbalanced/clunky gimmick.

Spoiler: Lightning

Similarly to how Grip 1 is a gimmicky "I win" button (in most cases), Lightning 1 shouldn't be strong for the low cost it has. Note that if a target is trying to shoot you (they'd have to walk to get perfect accuracy in general but this could also be tweaked if they're getting shocked), you're still able to advance faster toward them (or forcing them to try and run in which case you could try and Push/Pull/etc aside from the current aftercast that Lightning has). Also, the changes weren't related to Attunement so you wouldn't have to sacrifice Defense if you didn't want to.

Hope I clarified properly/covered all of the points.