Future(s) of the Force (Part 1)

[Tempest]

As promised, since Phase 1 of the saber vs saber changes are mostly ironed out, here's the introduction to the various tweaks/changes for Force-related things that I have in mind/am considering currently. Feel free to comment about the specifics I include or just general thoughts about how things work vs how you'd like to see them changed.

To start, I'd like to reiterate (from other discussions) that I don't like binary mechanics/concepts. I don't think all of the Force stuff is that way but there's definitely some things that need to be looked at. Cases like Push overshadowing Pull in terms of ease of usage and reward (in general or vs varying levels of effort/thought required) while still costing roughly the same amount of points in a build aren't what I'd consider binary but are priorities when it comes to getting things in order. Also, bringing Force-oriented specs more in line with saber+Force builds (or even just making Force-oriented specs a concrete/consistently useful thing rather than gimmicky or considered to be trolling by most) is a primary goal for this set of changes.

General things on the table:
1) Adjusting mechanics
This would involve things like changing Push/Pull from just being click+point (or just click with Push in a lot of cases..) to having a charge-up that determines their behavior.
2) Consistency
Differences in the levels of powers and their effectiveness (looking at you Lightning 1 and Grip 1)
3) Push vs Pull
As I mentioned, I'd like to bring Push more in line with Pull. Reducing the arc that Push affects is one example/consideration for doing this.
4) Grip vs Lightning
This is a more fickle case but I think is definitely something to consider (especially in the cases of level 1 of each). Lightning 1 basically accomplishes what Grip 1 does without having a build-up to it. It does have the drawback of not being able to use other powers afterward but at that point, the enemy could probably be dead already.
5) Deflect
Possibly freeing up a power slot and re-allocating Deflect's effects between the different levels of Saber Defense (combining level 1 of Deflect with Defense, 2 of Deflect with 2 of Defense, etc).

There's a lot of things to consider but those are the main points of interest. Also, just to be clear, I haven't looked at possible differing costs of abilities yet since this is all still in the early early stages of being changed.

With that said, I'd like to introduce what I've dubbed "Force Attunement". On the gameplay side, this would be a new ability that would serve the purpose of allowing you to give up saber defense in exchange for enhancements/tweaks to the powers that you choose in your build instead of simply losing your saber (or having one just because you don't have anywhere else you want to put the points) and having the option of a few (more) powers at higher levels. On the development side, this would allow for easier changing/adjusting of things like Push's arc, charge-ups (or lack thereof) for powers, and so on (yay more bugs features). I'm currently thinking of having Attunement be an inverse relationship with Saber Defense. This means if you had level 3 in Defense, you wouldn't be able to get any in Attunement. If you had level 1 Defense, you could have level 2 Attunement. Basically, an easily visualization of sacrificing your saber skills for better Force attributes (a similar system to how you can only have certain styles mixed together).

Spoiler: Attunement Details

Level 1:

• Would increase the arc of Push (basically putting it to how it is now vs the reduction for non-Attunement builds)
• Slightly increased FP pool or regeneration
• Possible alternative (or maybe even the explicit) way of unlocking Repulse (maybe even just as the alternative to Jump 3 as a requirement)

Level 2:

• Less FP drain from being shot
• Minor damage decreased from light weapon shots via blocking with melee
  
• Increased FP pool or regeneration (separate/increasing upon level 1's stuff)
  
• Blue's Force Focus perk (2x faster on others, 2x slower on yourself unless the other person has the same attribute; or maybe split the perk in half between Attunement 2 and 3)
• Lightning block would now drain FP/halt FP regen (could depend on Lightning level as well)
  
• Able to displace (this doesn't inherently mean knocking them down) saberists with Push/Pull/Repulse regardless of them blocking/FB level/etc (would quite likely be adjusting Force Focus to work properly) in tandem with Attunement
• Maybe allow limited cases of simultaneous power usage (depends on engine limits though)

Level 3:

• Any power used on saberists would drain FP regardless of FB/Focus (wouldn't necessarily affect them, just make it easier to do things afterward, more or less)
• Shots blocked via melee would have further damage decreases (no blocking projectile rifle shots with your fists though, sorry)
  
• Specific bonuses depending on the levels of other powers, such as:
  • Force Block 3 would allow for modified threshholds for when powers could affect you
  • Mind Trick 3 allows for immunity to Sense while meditating; also possibly make it so that MT shares invisibility with teammates within a certain radius of the user
  • Lightning 3 + Force Block 2 or 3 would deal less damage to teammates
  • Lightning 2+ catches Wookiees on fire after a duration if they don't have Health 3
    
  • Repulse would affect Wookiees differently depending on their Strength levels (Strength 2 = get knocked down but maybe have to only have Strength 1 to play pinball with them)

• More cases of simultaneous powers being used

Level 1 Attunement might seem underwhelming compared to the others but remember that you'd be able to have it with Defense 2 at the same time. I also have other ideas for various combinations but those start to get a bit too complex for the early stages... Now, for powers and possibilities for what to do with/to them.

Spoiler: Push

• Reduction of effective arc
• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this) vs players (would still affect projectiles/grenades within the arc as it does now)
• Knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Spoiler: Pull

• Possible (small) range reduction
• Add an arc similar to Push rather than be solely single target
  
• Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness (Attunement would affect this)
• Disarm/knockdown rules per level would be adjusted accordingly

Spoiler: Grip

Level 1:

• Has visual/auditory indicator (entire process)
  
• Requires walking while activating and maintaining
  
• Forces target to walking speed and greatly reduces rate of fire (or maybe only allows primary shots or something along those lines)
• Deals __ damage per tick

Level 2:

• Has audio indicator for full process, visual only when it's nearing completion
• Can run while activating but forced to walk while maintaining
• Immobilizes target but still allows them to do very slow return fire
• Deals __ damage per tick

Level 3:

• Only has audio indicator
• Can run while activating but walk while maintaining (somewhat faster than default speed)
• Allows for lifting the target into the air and moving them, no retaliation allowed (except for powers from Jedi)
• Deals __ damage per tick (probably will kill or nearly kill a Jedi from full health if Grip lasts entire duration)

Spoiler: Lightning

Level 1:

• __ damage per tick (minimal)
  
• Forced to slowly walk while maintaining (capped duration, maybe?)
  
• Target can use low rate of fire shots while being affected

Level 2:

• __ damage per tick (depends on single or double stream)
  
• Can run while doing single stream, normal walk speed with double stream
  
• Can do two forward streams from melee (different animation than current 2H stream)
• Target can't fire while being affected and is minimally slowed (between running and walking speed)

Level 3:

• __ damage per tick
  
• More damage if used in melee (current 2H lightning)
  
• If target is knocked down, does further increased damage
• If maintained with a saber, forced to walk
• If maintained in melee, forced to speed between running and walking
  
• Target can't fire and is slowed while affected (walking or less than walking speed)

Remember, none of this is set in stone. I think that's a good start for now though, whew.

 

[Preston]

Would like to learn more about push and pull mostly, sounds very cool

 

[Helix]

Can be charged up to increase arc and effectiveness

YISS

 

[Gumba]

This attunement sounds like FW buffs to me. Do not like.

The other stuff seems fine.

 

[Preston]

This attunement sounds like FW buffs to me. Do not like.

The other stuff seems fine.

Maybe cause most the other stuff is nerf

 

[Stassin]

I don't like how you say force push overshadows force pull in terms of reward because push has a huge vulnerability window after use and generally pull 3 is more effective to take out targets even without knockdown because it closes the distance. Push 3 sure is easier to use at low level but when aiming pull 3 is not a problem for the saberist, pull 3 is way more effective to score kills and push is only useful to defend (increase distance with enemies) or repel projectiles, and alot more risky due to the vulnerability window when you're facing good gunners.

That said i like the ideas you're proposing with push, namely charging and reducing arc of effectiveness.
As for pull, charging might be fine but increasing the arc i would definitely say no, pull is quite strong enough as it is.

As for grip/lightning, in order to differentiate them better, i think you should rather consider splitting stun and damage effects between them rather than just increasing them for both with levels. Stun would be grip's main reward while damage would be lightning's.

As for attunement, there are cool ideas (most of which aren't new btw), but i think you should mostly focus on buffing force powers against saberists, this is what FWs need most at the moment, they are already quite strong enough against most gunners and might even need nerfs in that area (except wook/SBD/Deka ofc). So in this regard, ideas like increasing push arc, buffing force focus, allowing displacement vs FB or even saber blocking, and even the ability to drain the opponent's FP with lightning (or maybe even other powers), probably all have some place in the game (maybe even increased FP regen but only with saber defense 0 though). As for melee block reducing gun damage, i already tried that and it was rejected in beta so probably no. Simultaneous force power use, uh i dunno about that, sounds kinda OP.

On the other hand, why aren't you considering the possibility of adding speed to Sith and another force power to jedi that would help them be a little bit more offensive ? Of course this would require alot of balancing cause speed siths OP etc. but ultimately you'd address the large difference in power that there is currently between jedi FW and sith FW, and it would help addressing the weakness of FW against heavy classes to some extent as well.

 

[Gumba]

Question is: Do we really want FW to be viable?

 

[Preston]

Question is: Do we really want FW to be viable?

Yes

 

[Gumba]

Yes

Why though?
They are annoying campers that pick up lone targets and add nothing to the team.

 

[takuta pls]

Why though?
They are annoying campers that pick up lone targets and add nothing to the team.

is that not exactly why they need to be changed?

 

[Preston]

Why though?
They are annoying campers that pick up lone targets and add nothing to the team.

Same could be said about heroes that just use proj from behind.

 

[Szunti]

Instead of push being a cone, it could be a cylinder, or a cone that narrows from you instead. Then you had to aim better the farther your target is. Covering larger area far away doesn't make sense and this is why it looks broken imo.

My other problem is push makes rockets (and grenade to a lesser degree) mostly useless. I don't say saberist should die to rockets, but if you spend a lot of points on them and you get a couple shots in your face whenever you launch one, you should at least be able to use it for area denial for a couple seconds.

 

[Gumba]

Same could be said about heroes that just use proj from behind.

Sassy.
But very false and you know it.

 

[Preston]

Sassy.
But very false and you know it.

Not really, if a hero wants to, it can just stay back and use nothing but proj. How is that not camping? Don't mis understand me, Im all for gunner and jedi. Hero is my favorite class, just saying it can go either way, so not all fws have to be campers is what im saying. Same for heros

 

[Gumba]

Not really, if a hero wants to, it can just stay back and use nothing but proj. How is that not camping? Don't mis understand me, Im all for gunner and jedi. Hero is my favorite class, just saying it can go either way, so not all fws have to be campers is what im saying. Same for heros

But FWs(at least the sith part) HAS to hide and camp. That's the whole point.
If you run out and try to help your team you just get shot and die. The Jedi FW meanwhile can at least mt+speed its way to a front position only to be completely and utterly useless while being there.

 

[Preston]

But FWs(at least the sith part) HAS to hide and camp. That's the whole point.
If you run out and try to help your team you just get shot and die. The Jedi FW meanwhile can at least mt+speed its way to a front position only to be completely and utterly useless while being there.

I just use speed and jump to get close to people and super push them into each other, works fairly well actually.

Also I'd say that if a fw, or any class for that matter. Kills another player he is far from useless

 

[MoonmanMoonman]

Question. Are you supposed to not be able to superpush(pull and push) ARCs with dex3? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, i thought it depends on the amount of stamina said ARC has at the moment but idk

 

[Gumba]

Question. Are you supposed to not be able to superpush(pull and push) ARCs with dex3? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, i thought it depends on the amount of stamina said ARC has at the moment but idk

I think it depends on what dex level they have. Not sure if they have to have 1 or 2 to not get superpushed though

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Anything to make low level grip/lightning less like an "I win" button is good.
I like the idea of tying repulse and other force buffs to a separate new ability.
Push/pull charging could be interesting, but I think that may be trying to make too many big changes at once along with everything else.
Also agree Stassin on pull 3 already being useful and speed for sith. Pleaaase give sith speed.

5) Deflect
Possibly freeing up a power slot and re-allocating Deflect's effects between the different levels of Saber Defense (combining level 1 of Deflect with Defense, 2 of Deflect with 2 of Defense, etc).

If this style rework gets used, why not just tie saber deflect to cyan style? That way, you have a visual indicator when facing a saberist who has a significant bonus vs guns (Q3 or deflect). IMO it would be silly to have a style's entire perk be dependent on buying another ability. If cyan is the only style that can accurately deflect shots, it would also be easier to balance when making deflect tweaks in the future.

 

[MoonmanMoonman]

I think it depends on what dex level they have. Not sure if they have to have 1 or 2 to not get superpushed though

The thing is, i remember not being able to superpush ARCs with Dex3 just to be suddenly able to superpush them the very next round, and i'm 100% sure they didn't change their build.