Force Sense OP

[[TG]trap]

Force sense has been the bane of my existence ever since I started playing MB2. Having the ability to press a button and obtain free wall hacks is unfun. It ruins any chance at strategic flanking maneuvers or intelligently, elaborately crafted traps. Instead some jedi or sith uses force sense and immediately knows everyone's position, giving no chance of winning to those who aren't necessarily good at aiming but really good at positioning or setting up cool traps. Instead we get pew pew and jedi or sith go wobble wobble jump wobble wobble. It's the same thing every time and ruins the diversity of plans that could be concocted. I like the idea of force sense dodging sniper bullets however, just remove the wall hacking part and add something more balanced in its place and the game will be better for it .

 

[JamJarBinks]

Speaking of sense, @Lindsey can you chill with the areaportals? Your skilled mapping is ruining my wallhacks. 😪

 

[Kodar]

While this probably could have been worded better, and I'm not sure I agree with the suggested changes completely, but OP isn't wrong.

Sense was, is, and is looking to continue to be the strongest ability in the entirety of mb2, surpassing old semi-god mode dodge by a longshot. The value of built-in wallhacks can't be understated, and it really does need some sort of re-working. What that re-working looks like is another matter admittedly.

 

[Helix]

There was a proposal and a discussion that followed a few years ago about changing sense to a "burst" ability that would just highlight the position of the enemies within certain arc & range and that image would stay for a few secs.

As in, you use sense in main, there's a sold behind a corner, he was there when you used sense, but the image is static, he might've ran away by the time you get to that position.

That would turn sense into a very situational and not spammable ability like it is nowadays. You'd have just enough time to tell the position of the most dangerous enemies.

 

[JamJarBinks]

I just want to point out, as a Jedi main who runs S3, that the vast majority of my deaths are because I wasted a third of my force pool on sense right before an engagement. Situational awareness is great, but let's be real, knowing there are 2 SBD, a Mando, and 2 Sith about to enter the hallway you're in just gives you a longer bit of time to realize you're about to die. Actually, with the lower force points, it hastens your death.

 

[Fluffy |>]

There was a proposal and a discussion that followed a few years ago about changing sense to a "burst" ability that would just highlight the position of the enemies within certain arc & range and that image would stay for a few secs.

As in, you use sense in main, there's a sold behind a corner, he was there when you used sense, but the image is static, he might've ran away by the time you get to that position.

That would turn sense into a very situational and not spammable ability like it is nowadays. You'd have just enough time to tell the position of the most dangerous enemies.

this i like, pls add

 

[Duckshark]

There was a proposal and a discussion that followed a few years ago about changing sense to a "burst" ability that would just highlight the position of the enemies within certain arc & range and that image would stay for a few secs.

As in, you use sense in main, there's a sold behind a corner, he was there when you used sense, but the image is static, he might've ran away by the time you get to that position.

That would turn sense into a very situational and not spammable ability like it is nowadays. You'd have just enough time to tell the position of the most dangerous enemies.

I really like this, I just wonder how meditate sensing would work? Would it just be live images or would it just be like force-free sense flickers every couple seconds?

 

[MaceMadunusus]

There was a proposal and a discussion that followed a few years ago about changing sense to a "burst" ability that would just highlight the position of the enemies within certain arc & range and that image would stay for a few secs.

This was my concept I made in UE4 for it. Pulse radiating out from the player.

 

[JamJarBinks]

I really like this, I just wonder how meditate sensing would work? Would it just be live images or would it just be like force-free sense flickers every couple seconds?

Hear me out. Meditate Sense should be sense 3 only, renamed battle meditation, and give rebs within an AOE sense pulses every 10 seconds.

It takes 1 player out the action to play support role while also nerfing the active wallhack we have now.

 

[Helix]

Hear me out. Meditate Sense should be sense 3 only, renamed battle meditation, and give rebs within an AOE sense pulses every 10 seconds.

It takes 1 player out the action to play support role while also nerfing the active wallhack we have now.

That is actually cool, I'd trade maneuverability for utility.

 

[Fluffy |>]

Surely that just means that to have a good team you need someone to sit in a corner for half the round

 

[kvinto]

Surely that just means that to have a good team you need someone to sit in a corner for half the round

heh

 

[JamJarBinks]

Surely that just means that to have a good team you need someone to sit in a corner for half the round

They'd have to keep close to their team for the AOE, so they'd have to stay pretty mobile and probably the first to die to flanks.

 

[Fluffy |>]

Well I did say half the round

 

[cannonfodder]

Hear me out. Meditate Sense should be sense 3 only, renamed battle meditation, and give rebs within an AOE sense pulses every 10 seconds.

It takes 1 player out the action to play support role while also nerfing the active wallhack we have now.

If sense 3 required you to meditate, how would you read targets Health and Armor? Or would that be removed. Because in scrims, each individual gunner doesn't need to see the enemy themselves if the jedi is actively communicating to the team, and being able to see HP and armor helps your gunners know who to focus.

 

[Karus]

I can see how it's an issue in serious/ultra-comp pugs, but honestly... In public Open?
Nah... I dunno.
You still need to get to those targets in order to kill them.
It's wallhack, sure, but you don't have a gun. Or ANY kind of ranged weapon for that matter (except saber throw, but it does a pathetic amount of damage and forces you to run around like a complete dick for a few seconds until you can get your saber back).
It's also not free. Nor permanent, and it drains FP like a bitch if you're not at least slightly smart with it.
Like I said, I get why it's a problem in pugs, or sweaty comp play (voice comms, callouts etc.) but I just don't think it's a big problem for the majority.
There is no built-in mic comm system (thank FUCK), so unless you're up against a group of guys sweating in a Discord voice channel, I don't think it really matters.
Probably speaking out of turn here, though.

 

[Kodar]

The amount of usage I've seen sense get in public open is already absurd as it is. You don't need to be in voice comms to take insane advantage of it.

A simple example is Gen of DotF. Mandos come in pre-door open and spread out among the shaft. Jedi sees this, and just uses the mando in-game call. I immediately know there are mandos hiding in gen, and I'm already looking at the usual locations they would hide. This can easily extend to Sith, Dekas, BHs, so on so forth.

Echobase with rebs on defense. Wooks can be hiding at a variety of corners. Sith goes v -> 6 -> 6, and we have avoided a massive initial problem and can nullify any advantage the wook has in terms of surprise.

Lunarbase bottom portion of side. Often forgotten, but one sith can sense the inevitable and rotate, generally saving half their team by just existing.

Corellia. Any sith can sense a reb going thru vents and camp the top of the vents in advance, or just type it quickly in teamchat.

I can keep going with various maps, but I think the point is being made.

I'm not just making these scenarios up either, as I've seen them play out many, many times in public open. If the overall skill level of the pop on the server is on the lower end, they may not take advantage, but just some decent game sense and paying attention will save an entire team a world of headache.

As far as point costs go, I'll gladly spend 2 points for minimap wallhacks. I'll even more gladly spend 6 total points for actual wallhacks. 6 points and I can press one button and have walls on demand. Compare for example that I have to spend at least 10 points for a nade as a Hero, or 15 for a nade as an ET. The points are easily worth it, and the force cost is easily worth it. Learning to manage your force is just part of learning glowstick in general.

Built-in walls is absolutely absurd in its strength for extending ones own life, preventing flanks, and preventing ambushes. Sense saves my ass as a glowstick, or as a gunner with a mildly competent support more often than push ever does to be honest. This applies to open as well as comp play.

I'm still not sure what a re-work should look like to be honest, but built in walls is extremely difficult to defend from a balance perspective no matter the context.

 

[JamJarBinks]

I'm still not sure what a re-work should look like to be honest, but built in walls is extremely difficult to defend from a balance perspective no matter the context.

The balance is that both teams have it.

Gunner vs saber is another topic.

 

[Kodar]

The balance is that both teams have it.

Gunner vs saber is another topic.

What an asinine defense. In that regard, both sides have p3 and proj. Were the proj nerfs warranted or not? Is p3 not out of control or not? Are sec nades fine seeing as how both sides have them?

 

[qwerty]

sense is pretty stupid in its current form and doesnt fit in the game at all, doesnt matter if ur team is using voice chat or not its still op for jedi to have infinite information especially since they are so good at ambushing people around corners. and even if you ignore the 1v1 aspect, you still give info to your teammates if u see someone through a wall even if u don't talk or type because of the way u approach the fight. and if u wanna talk about matches then sense completely ruins them, every team has a jedi with sense 3 on voice who talks non stop where every enemy is at all times and can even tell u their exact hp. u cant make any plays because you have to assume the other team always know where you are

at most it should be something that plays a sound or a visual effect if u click it and someone is within x range of u (originating from your character so u don't know the enemy's position). wallhack style sense makes the game more boring