Force Sense: FA-Only ?

Stassin

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Just throwing in a poll to see what at least ppl lurking on forums think about it.

Ideas like making sense be just a warning sign on radar when an enemy is closeby, not giving precise locations, have been discussed recently, but ultimately just knowing about an enemy's presence is still a big advantage. And that's as little an advantage as it's going to get, really, that's pretty much as weak as we could make force sense.

So what about removing force sense from open mode completely ? Only FA classes would still freely have its powerful current version, and it's fine for jedi/sith to be uber-good-at-surviving/ambushing/teamworking/killing 1v1/pretty much everything apart from killing enemies at a distance characters in FA.

Not adding a 3rd possible response in the form of "keep it in open mode but a weaker version", that kind of opinion should go in the "No." option because ultimately it's keeping Sense in open mode.
 
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Most of them have extralife and are flinchprotected so...
5 of 12, one of which often prefers CR3 instead of extra life, and half of the rest are not that popular of a class (ahem...sold...ahem). Even though all of that is being decently balanced.
Nice "most".

You can also regen FP between their lives.

Why do I always do well as a jedi even with flinch? Often, even against good gunners. Even if sense was completely removed (which I don't think it will at any close point in time) that would hardly change it, simply because using sense does not impact my ability to kill, not at all.

You, guys, all cry about flinch and forceusers being overnerfed... I wish you could provide demos of your your gameplay with your "unfair deaths to flinch and gunners". I would be happy to point out the mistakes you made and ways you could improve your own gameplay to actually succeed in this situation.

Could you please humor me and provide these?
 

Stassin

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Great, if they cant see where enemies are and get ambushed they are dead right away.
Just like gunners.
Well, i should correct myself here.


Just like gunners.

Except gunners ambushed by a single jedi/sith die instantly due to sabers oneshotting, while jedi/sith ambushed by a gunner (excluding snipers) may only lose some HP if they react fast enough to block additional shots - or even no HP if their saber is on and the ambusher isn't behind.

Also jedi/sith ambushed by jedi/sith have a chance to block (which is just a button press) if they react fast enough (or again if they have their saber on and the enemy isn't behind...) which completely resets the ambush, while gunners ambushed by jedi/sith have a chance to flinch (which requires perfect aim paired with fast reaction to a surprise attack) which still doesn't completely reset the ambush since the jedi/sith keeps the advantage of being very close.

Not to mention jedi/sith can use their great mobility and wallgrabbing to setup ambushes that pretty much no gunner other than mando could, such as jumping from a higher ground where scouting them is impossible.

And that's not all, if swinging a saber against a moving target is too difficult or the enemy is too far away, force powers can secure the success of the trap against gunners who can't resist them. Of course, ambushing a jedi/sith that way won't work since they can resist force powers just fine.


Just saying that even without sense, ambushing or being ambushed as jedi/sith would still be a cinch to handle compared to if you are a gunner. It would simply require some more game-awareness and risk-management like gunners are forced to have to survive (but still not quite as much as gunners), and since jedi/sith wouldn't have access to information that sense used to give them, ambushes by them would be less common because it'd be harder to see opportunities for it and plan it.
 
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5 of 12, one of which often prefers CR3 instead of extra life, and half of the rest are not that popular of a class (ahem...sold...ahem). Even though all of that is being decently balanced.
Nice "most".

You can also regen FP between their lives.

Why do I always do well as a jedi even with flinch? Often, even against good gunners. Even if sense was completely removed (which I don't think it will at any close point in time) that would hardly change it, simply because using sense does not impact my ability to kill, not at all.

You, guys, all cry about flinch and forceusers being overnerfed... I wish you could provide demos of your your gameplay with your "unfair deaths to flinch and gunners". I would be happy to point out the mistakes you made and ways you could improve your own gameplay to actually succeed in this situation.

Could you please humor me and provide these?

That's the problem of having a public discussion about gameplay elements. There will always be people with 0 gameknowledge that play for 2 weeks who think they know something about the balance in this game.
 
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i don't really have the confidence that a nerf to sense would be appropriately compensated for by buffs in other areas

not that i think it cant be done, just that i think it wont happen

i personally think the single most fun way to play this game is through using teamwork between a jedi and a gunner, and a large part of that is using sense

the ability to quickly and accurately do callouts has been an essential part of a support jedis toolkit to play effectively for a number of years, and now people that are upset about ambushes in open are calling for nerfs. in my eyes, ambushes on both side (both those enabled by a jedi having sense, and those that dont work because jedi have sense) are pretty weak gameplay and i'd much rather focus on the type of encounters that occur because people are aware of each other, instead of trying to get free kills
 

{Δ} Achilles

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Either make Jedi/Sith Support based, or Skill based, but stop jerking off around this idea of some dumb hybrid of 'He should be supporting, but teehee we took his tools away for supporting'. Which is it: Make Jedi/Sith a hilariously laughable portable shield for Gunners to plunk at each other (and their Jedi/Sith in the backs), or a killing machine.
 
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the ability to quickly and accurately do callouts has been an essential part of a support jedis toolkit to play effectively for a number of years, and now people that are upset about ambushes in open are calling for nerfs.
Wait, but that does not make any sense. There is no way for these people to request such changes. As you said, these are the people that get upset about ambushes. But sense does not help setting up ambushes in any way (apart from a few exceptional cases), you can do ambushes just fine without sense.

In fact, it actually defends from ambushes.
i don't really have the confidence that a nerf to sense would be appropriately compensated for by buffs in other areas
I understand your concern, but with current drains and blaster blocking angles for jedi I don't think sense makes that much of a difference in terms of survivability. It is not used during the attack, when the jedi is defending openly he does not really need sense, and if he is not under fire he can just use it freely, and extremely accurately position-wise (which does not really help him that much most of the time).

So, the only advantage it gives is the ability to accurately predict location of opponents that are quite far away, which, given the range limitations of jedi class and the fact they don't really need to aim makes it useless for any pure mechanical skills.

Let's talk softer skills, like positional awareness and inter-team communication. First of all, with the size of maps MB2 has the jedi can see far enough to be able to know the exact location, the quantity, and the quality (class) of the opponents at any given time. For a team that is connected in Discord, Skype, TeamSpeak, etc (like it is always done in competetive) this gives huge advantage to any defending team on any map. Which leads to constant stalemates and frontal head-to-head bumping, with the exception of the cases when the map is specifically designed to somehow break the opposition (Smuggler). I can't emphasize enough how huge it is.

What does it do for open? Most of your team in open consists of random people, that you do not have on VoIP. And you have little time to type in chat for your callouts with the pretty fast pace of MB2 gameplay, not to mention give accurate details. And lets be completely frank, nobody ever does that anyway, even if they could: most of the time there are like 10 people in the team, 5 of which are jedi, 1 of which is hopefully pushing well, another pushes badly all the time (trying to learn how to do it better), the rest just try to rush in and kill gunners, or duel the same kind of sith from the opposite team - right in front of gunners. Why do we even talk about sense here, how does it help? It won't make that much of a difference.

This leaves only the positional awareness of the jedi himself as a factor for open, and due to the fact you do not regen force while using Sense it is very situational: when not in an active engagement. So, you can basically get a perfect refresh of your positional awareness when it is least important. Why not make it dependant on actual player's skill and positional awareness, then? Especially with the margin of error forceuser's defences and mobility give?

Now, what are the consequences of sense being, say, removed? For both modes: generic open and competetive MB2.

For both of these, positioning in corellation to your team becomes far more important. You do not really want to rush into that corridor alone, who knows what trickster may be hiding behind that box over there. Instead, lets do this thing tactically: go smart and careful, check corners and hidy spots, work with team to properly occupy and take control over the location. In the current live build a jedi can just go in and say "clear". Or just run in in generic Open - the gunners will know from that it is clear. And these minute differences are some of the main building blocks of any good teamwork.
For both of these, environmental awareness of each player as a personal skill becomes suddently more important. You would need to listen to your headphones more closely, to watch the radar better, to watch where any shots and flashes come from and to, to watch your teammates, listen to their callouts... All of that is something you can apply your skill to, as well as combine skill with your teammates, which is the ultimate goal of a good teambased multiplayer game.
For both to some extent, but mostly for competetive, it will change the tactics used by all classes anywhere by a country mile. Suddently, creating an ambush or coming from behind is a valid defence tactic. Splitting up for a diversion, or learing the map to find ways of moving unnoticed becomes helpful and actually important for the attacking team.
For open, a couple of bullshit tactics available for forceusers disappears, like slashing an enemy through a door just as he is about to open it.

The only bad thing I see that will have any actually significant impact is the fact it becomes harder to identify timewasters. But hey, we are a community, right? Just call them out on that shit, so that admins could kick them!
 
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{Δ} Achilles

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Achilles, get ready for the Return Of The Jedi Cyan.

I am more ready than you could possibly imagine.

Anywho, I agree that sense could be toned down, but basically everyone in this thread has no concept of what they're talking about in regards of how to balance it. There were some very interesting ideas for how to make sense better, that ended up being drowned out by this ignorant 'Gunners are just whining about Jedi' or 'Jedi are just whining about Gunners' nonsense. Every class has something OP about it that can be abused, some more than others, sense would have been the *last* thing I'd have ever looked at on Jedi/Sith.

The only time I ever really had a moment where I was like 'God damned sense' was when I was playing against Paradine's Parasites and was about to flank them on Deathstar with Clone ez3 minigun, when a random newbie Sith with literally 0 affiliation with Paradine on their team spotted me with sense 3, and tried to ambush me. He immediately died to the Flinch-o-matic 5000, but his team was alerted to my flanking. That is it. In all of the time I've played MB2, that is the first time where Sense has actually annoyed me. Because do you know what I do the other 99.9999% of the time?

1232607465315.jpg

Check those corners.

I rarely get ambushed by Jedi/Sith, and when I do, it is mostly my fault. What annoys me more, are the walking push-binds that spam it forever while one of their teammates charges at me with a lightsaber, or... you know... a Wookiee/SBD hiding behind a door that I'd have no way of seeing without Sense 2/3 (or a teammate with Sense 2/3).

If you were to nerf the more ridiculous gunner classes, I'd be happy with sense taking a backseat, but against those certain classes, sense is utterly indispensable. You'd be ruining the class more for support, than for offense.
 
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Didn't I just say sense does not help making ambushes? Why would you bring ambush by a sith to back your point after we just discussed sense is not relevant for the attacking side in such situation? I'm certain that sith would have spotted you without Sense too if he was smart.

Every class has something OP about it that can be abused, some more than others, sense would have been the *last* thing I'd have ever looked at on Jedi/Sith.
...
The only time I ever really had a moment where I was like 'God damned sense' was when I was playing against Paradine's Parasites and was about to flank them on Deathstar with Clone ez3 minigun, when a random newbie Sith with literally 0 affiliation with Paradine on their team spotted me with sense 3, and tried to ambush me. He immediately died to the Flinch-o-matic 5000, but his team was alerted to my flanking. That is it. In all of the time I've played MB2, that is the first time where Sense has actually annoyed me.
,,,
If you were to nerf the more ridiculous gunner classes, I'd be happy with sense taking a backseat, but against those certain classes, sense is utterly indispensable. You'd be ruining the class more for support, than for offense.
The fact you say Force Sense is useless for competetive, and then literally say "you should nerf gunners as well if you nerf sense" is such a breaker of sensible logic.

Anyway, while I understand what you mean by Sense being less relevant for generic Open mode, and I agree with that point, it is actually huge for competetive. And I sincerely believe competetive MB2 (5v5 or 6v6 with class limit 1) is the best kind of MB2, and I hope removing such a huge wallhack as sense can help to improve it even further.

As to wookie or SBD camping behind a door, it is not nearly as bad as a forceuser with a lightsaber camping behind a door.

Also, wookie dies really fast to headshots nowadays, and his head is HUGE, you can land those so easily... I do agree there may be ways to make wookie more interesting, but that is a whole topic to discuss and think on, because you would also want to keep it balanced, as well as well themed to the race's unique treats.

SBD is slow, if you get trapped by SBD you are really doing something wrong, or get caught way out of position. The slow speed of SBD means he can be played around if done properly. And with proper usage of cover you can even play around something like magnetic.
 

{Δ} Achilles

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I never said sense is useless for competitive, I just said that I never had a problem with it.

If I am a gunner, and a force user is hiding behind the door, I check the door before walking through it. If the Jedi tries to swing at me, he gets flinched. If a Wookiee is hiding behind the door, he'll instantly catch up to me, and no amount of shots will save me, because I will be *dead*. Unless I'm playing as Bounty Hunter, Mando, or Sith.

Wookiee dying to headshots is irrelevant when ambushing is concerned.

Playing around SBD isn't a thing. If Imps are guarding Objective, then the SBD simply has to sit on the objective for all of his power to come to bear. In a situation where you have to fight an SBD, the SBD has the supreme advantage, for not only having infinitely more survivability, but also a superior weapon (SBD laser is obscenely strong compared to E-11). If Imps are attacking objective, then you either have to put yourself in the way of the SBD and the objective, or it wins.
 
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