That's it for now. If you can think of something else to put on the list defining what a desirable dueling system is, please add your feedback along with the reasoning behind it, like I have done. I think we can avoid a lot of nonsensical feedback if we have more clear explanations for why X or Y mechanic was introduced or removed.
Design Principles for Dueling
Clear and consistent mechanics that have their potency based on the effort required to perform said mechanics under the various conditions or states of play that arise in mb2.
Any deviation from a neutral baseline of
effort to performance will again have clear and consistent advantages and disadvantages, to be discussed.
The aim of a potential Saber beta is to bring the live patch of dueling more aligned with the above stated design principles, with an
emphasis on the
mechanics of dueling and
swing to swing interaction, and less of a focus on numerical modifications (e.g., damage values, defense values).
Below is a list of mechanics problems that to me are not in agreeance with the above design principles and aim.
Slap knock back/punishment window:
A problem that I haven't seen talked about at all, is a common occurring situation in which one player whiffs their slap and makes their Opponent get pushed back a considerable distance or up in the air. This causes the opponent's swing punishment to whiff in the air or be out of range entirely.
The person whiffing the slap may also have time to start their own swing and hit the Opponent even after
clearly making a mistake. The reverse is also true to an extent, e.g., slapping an opponent whilst they are running, causing them to get launched to a distance that does not equate to a full ground punish.
The instant A halfswing swing for yellow in Beta solves this issue for nearly all cases, however, as I'll point out later, it's more of a
band-aid solution.
Proposed solution: increase recovery for slap slightly and add a small timer after the slap animation is over in which the player cannot swing.
Counter swings:
Currently in live,
countering mid combo is entirely
dependent on the
swing used and distance, assuming the Opponent is performing the fastest possible combo. Right now, countering has no relation to PB.
The problem is that there are
too many states in which the player is able to
attack out of freely with
minimal effort or actions that readily
turn the momentum of the duel
around, counter swinging with no PB being one of them.
Proposed solution: counter swings should only be available with pbing and will be consistent at point blank range vs combos.
Yes, this change will be annoying, even to high level players but it forces more
conscious effort towards mechanics and
rewards good offense.
If someone's masks/mix-ups are good, you will have to be
proactive in taking measures to mitigate said interaction, instead of tanking exchanges or defaulting to pressing.
Side note: Currently in live, you could slow yaw to interrupt a counter swing. The problem is countering is still available whilst being interrupted and removing this is a good change. More to be discussed on interrupts later.
Combos:
Should not have startup period, any style that has these in the beta just feels awful and these combos gets shut down by counterswings, leading to
messy timing situations.
Halfswings and neutral swings:
Currently in live for the yellow mirror, it's possible to do a neutral swing in between yellow's fastest halfswing chain D -> D side. The problem is that it is possible to do this
on reaction, generally most people can be conditioned not to press and expect a combo instead of a halfswing,
but for players privy to this, it presents an opportunity to
consistently out time and
shutdown their opponent.
Yes,
slap can be used to counter this, but the
timing is
variable, and, in my view, there should exist a
swing-to-swing interaction which counters this.
The A halfswing does this perfectly, however it does it
TOO perfectly and leads to the A halfswing being the
default swing in any halfswing/parry state, where there is even a hint the opponent will press.
Hence, the player does not need to
proactively condition their opponent once properties of the A halfswing are acknowledged.
The A half swing from a parry scenario also enforces that both players
must use it to out time their Opponent and in a sense, it can be a cover for frankly shit swing selection and timing.
Proposed solution: Keep the A halfswing but only allow it from D->A, now the A half swing can only occur from one swing and will require active conditioning.
Side note: Not having full PB in returns means players can on reaction neutral between halfswing attempts and get free hits on top of shifting momentum.
TL;DR (keep A halfswing but make it limited coming from one swing, so it isn't the default option).
ACM:
To my understanding the purpose of ACM is to
punish passive play and aid or
build momentum in a duel. However, I find no such cases where this is applicable. If passive play is to be understood as not swinging and blocking for extended periods of time and not willing to engage, then
ACM is not required. The Opponent should be able to
enforce their will on the passive player utilising
mix-ups/masks etc, and
failure to do so is an
evident lack of offense. This leads onto the second point of ACM aiding in momentum, again the use of an arbitrary modifier is not required,
good offense will consist of
capitalising on direct hits with continual
pressure or
baits and excellent
swing selection. You also do not see the mechanic working in a swing-to-swing fashion, hence
unclear.
Proposed solution: Get rid of ACM
TL;DR (ACM is not needed when adequate offensive skills are present).
Specials:
Should not be able to be inputted as a
continuation of a
combo or
counter swing, given that specials have zero start up time and have
priority over every other swing.
A common example of this, is duallies D side into Stab. Luckily the counter situation does not occur too often as most players are not privy to it.
I'm not going to talk about potential special changes as I just simply couldn't care less; they are not and
should not be the focal point of dueling, in my opinion.
Proposed solution: Get rid of insta specials/the ability to be inputted as a combo or counter swing.
Perfect Blocking and Player Movement:
The
nature of mb2 allows a great deal of
freedom of movement with
little debuffs applied to movement while in various states.
Due to this, it is a
common occurrence that swings may need to be re-aimed in order to hit/reach a moving opponent.
Because of the little impedance of this
dynamic nature (e.g no slowdowns when being hit etc) being able to make up for this lack of impedance in the form of PBs seems reasonable.
It requires a
due amount of skill and still allows the opponent the
ability to punish whiffs.
In regard to swing-to-swing interactions, being able to test what your opponent will do from being hit with some measure of safety (a "
poke", if you will) is a
vital tool in assessing someone's
capabilities and tendencies.
Being able to
PB in returns allows for this
slight safety net if someone has
good mechanical skill (again, PBing their return is
NOT guaranteed).
PB in returns allow for a set of plays that
mitigate damage, collect information and
bait opponent responses.
Example: CS/counterswing into a combo, stop, PB, CS again, mitigate damage while blending PBs and parries while baiting slaps from continued comboing.
Not being able to do the aforementioned
forces trades and damage, where
running out of the combo or
slapping is the
only viable option.
The only case where I could possibly see PB in returns not being allowed is from PB CS as a punish and that is only due to the movement in mb2 creating instances where it is easier to pb the punish, if in close distance this does
not apply.
Proposed solution: Keep PB on returns.
TL;DR (PB in returns is a requirement to defend against non-proactive actions and the freedom of movement that exists in dueling, e.g. running, jumping etc).
Interrupts:
The first question for
interrupts should be "what do they entail and how is the
momentum of the duel changed when they occur?"
Currently in live, after interrupting your opponent, your best option is to either combo to parry a potential counterswing and to not allow the opponent to neutral swing or prepare to PB in return against a potential counter.
Obviously, this scenario is
flawed and has been
addressed but my question is, after getting interrupted, should the opponent have priority to attack from neutral, or should the player be able to frame trap the opponent again
and again?
(Which is the case in the yellow mirror on beta, interrupt -> A halfswing -> A halfswing etc). So overall, should the player get increased damage and
slow the opponent's
momentum down, or completely
shift the
momentum in their
favour?
TL;DR: Should interrupts slow the opponent's momentum or switch it over entirely?
Style Changes:
I think style specific changes are the
least objective in what is the
goal of the style, minus effort to effectiveness, however I will provide some brief ideas for non-yellow styles below.
Blue: styles that have
fast timings overall should have their
defense gutted in my opinion and
require the player to
PB well up close. I don't like that blue lost it’s 50/50, when it makes contact with you, it's a guess between a combo and halfswing as you cannot counterswing or neutral it mid combo, yes this in conjunction with its fast halfswings, high defense, solid ground punish and distancing tools make it the
best style in the game in my opinion and a
regular annoyance to those who face it. I would reduce the swing count to two, reduce the halfswing speed(it never was instant btw), and gut the defense. I like the BP regen debuff, but would move it over to another mechanic besides acm. My ideal goal for blue is being a style that
enforces 50/50s at close range and attempts to
lock down the player with BP debuffs to make up for its poor damage and not holding the s key down like a nymph.
Cyan: Gut the defense, reduce swing count to 3, emphasis on using fast neutrals to
out time the opponent and
PBing gaps in defense.
Duels: Medium-Poor defense, I like the non-last halfswing/counterswing resetting the swing count, and I think this style could work well as a defensive style with some limited halfswing mixups, but this would require PB in returns to do things like PB CS stop PB CS stop etc.
Staff: what makes staff strong in live is the fast counterswing/halfswing WA/A/WD while having yellows fastest halfswing transition D->D on all swings -> WA/A/WD, with the ability to still do
decent damage with combos if need be, it doesn't have as much of a reliance on halfswinging as blue does to deal damage. In beta staff requires great attention to detail in what you input, using combos that are low -> high results in slow combos and halfswings of the opposite side resulting in non-useful spins. I don't have a clear goal for staff, except the style not having an arbitrary high defense, but I would assume making the style more palatable would come from tweaking the above details.
Purple: again no real clear goal here.
Red: Increase defense, decrease damage, focus on heavy counters. I don't think you should be able to run up to someone's face and start a half swing with minimal effort even for reduced damage, i.e. nudge. I had an idea for red neutral swings that would allow the canceling of the swing into a faster mixup on the opposite side, but how this would work and look in mb2 is questionable at best.
Miscellaneous:
Hitboxes in live, while being slightly extended, feel good on hit. This feeling is what should be preserved. While whatever new concoction of hitboxes may be more accurate, they feel as though the saber is hitting deeper into the model and for me ruins the feel of yaws.
Staggers on other
slaps, just remove them, there should be no button that gives you priority.
Numbers for damage, good for testing, should be for demos only or some server command, takes skill away from judging BP level.
Mblocks should allow for disarms, not sure how well the fail punish works, you could be pressing in keys to counter etc and take dmg, I would move the failed dmg to non-PB instead of timing to alleviate this issue or just make mb require BP like the old patches.
TL;DR: Remove slap knock back, remove non-PB counter swings, yellow A halfswing limited to coming from one swing being D, remove specials being used as an extension of a combo or counter input, remove acm, keep PB in returns, refer to interrupt section for answers to possible questions).
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