Feedback Thread: Open Beta (after V1.4.9) - Drop 1

[Stassin]

E-11 secondary fire fp drain seems insanely low, i don't like that.

Alright, i'm going to point it out for everyone because many are confused already. E-11 secondary fire FP drain isn't low, clone rifle 3 FP drain isn't low, it's something else, this:

• Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.

This effectively nerfs all high rate of fire weapons against blocking jedi, or multiple people shooting. With this, if you want to destroy a jedi's FP you're better off using low ROF weapons or even tapping attack when you have a higher ROF weapon. I am not 100% sure it's the perfect feature to have given how many people seem to be confused about it already, but i believe it has great potential. If there's an overwhelming negative feedback though i guess it'll be better to just have no special feature like this and just reduce blocking & running drains a little bit more overall.

 

[Lessen]

It can't dodge headshots, so you aren't invincible.

It can dodge headshots, unless there's going to be a change in the next version. In the current version of the game it's complete invincibility to gunfire from the front.

 

[Lessen]

Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.

aside: there's a quirk to this where if a weaker shot and a stronger shot hit a saberist within 200ms, the order in which they hit affects the total damage (as in: your high power shot might do stupidly low damage just because the jedi happened to block a weak shot a moment before.) I told Tempest about this and presented a slightly more complex version of the algorithm that results in the same damage for any combination of shots in any order. It sounds like this'll be in the next version of the beta.

(the overall effect is that a shot will never be reduced by more than 50% damage, but may be reduced by less than 50% damage if the shot that triggered the Drain Reduction state was weaker.)

on the one hand, this change makes the mechanic even more complicated to fully explain, but on the other hand it makes its behavior way more consistent...

 

[MuscBodypillow]

It can dodge headshots, unless there's going to be a change in the next version. In the current version of the game it's complete invincibility to gunfire from the front.

Honestly I would have liked dodge to be a passive thing that lets you dodge x number of bullet in a given time, that way you escape some damage continually, but this may be better for defence rather than offensive push.

• Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.

So basically if you have more than 1 guy shooting at a saberist and landing half the shots, you are buffing him. That makes them better in X_gunner vs 1_jedi, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

[Lessen]

So basically if you have more than 1 guy shooting at a saberist and landing half the shots, you are buffing him. That makes them better in X_gunner vs 1_jedi, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Note that the 200ms timer can't be reset in the middle of itself, so every 200ms the jedi DOES take a full damage shot, so multiple gunners are still more effective than a single gunner.

(and with my algorithm tuning described above, you won't fire a T-21 cannon shot at a Jedi and have its damage eaten just because the Jedi blocked a tiny random long range dinky shot a moment ago. So in no case can you accuse your ally-with-a-weak-gun of having buffed the enemy. Once my algorithm's in.)

 

[SeV]

• • Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.
  • FP drain is now only capped in two circumstances.
    • If block is held down, FP drains can't exceed more than 50 FP.
    • If a shot comes from outside IDR (long range) and would have drained more than 40 FP, it's capped at draining 40 FP.
  • Blocking FP drain multiplier changed from 0.50x to 0.85x
  • Running FP drain multiplier changed from 1.2x to 0.95x
  • Universal damage reduction removed from saberists. Force-only (as in, does not have a saber whatsoever; not just stowed away) Jedi/Sith still retain 20% innate damage reduction. Poison adjusted to still apply damage at the same rate it did regardless.
  • Jedi/Sith (saber or not) have a 20% damage reduction multiplier while in rolling getup animations.
  • Jedi/Sith (saber or not) have a 20% damage reduction multiplier from friendly fire.
• 
  
• Further gameplay changes
  • Clone Rifle
    • Blob velocity reduced by 15%.
    • Blob base damage reduced from 20 to 5.
  • 
    
  • Grenades
    • FP drain removed (20 from frags, 10 from sonics)
• • Projectile Rifle
    • Ammo adjusted from 7/15/24 to 8/10/15

I feel like FP drains should be more consistent, and I would like Drain range to be normalized so that distance doesn't matter. A shot should drain 5 fp whether it is from 5 yards or 100 yards, the only exception to this should be proj, which should be able to 1 shot in close range. This will give gunners more leeway and incentive to stay further away, and will underscore the fact that jedi/sith are a melee class.

In line with making fp drains more consistent, I feel the FP drain timer kind of messes things up. It's almost easier to survive vs many gunners just dodging shots than it is vs 1 guy with support that just taps away. If a jedi is outnumbered by many gunners, and those gunners all shoot the jedi, the jedi should take alot of FP drain and die quickly. Nerfing high ROF weapons FP drain seems to be the more feasible solution, rather than adding the delay. I know tempest intended it to help with 1vx but tbh, if you're outnumbered you should get drained faster. Just that. Even the jedi in the movies get raped when faced with many gunners. I don't want jedi to be weak, but this delay does nothing but muddy the waters and make FP drain inconsistent. I think a normalized DR and consistent FP drains is better.

--

Now having said the above, I would like to see damage reduction be applied to jedi/sith when holding block, not just when rolling. This is because without the 20% you take enormous damage from various sources. For example, a soldiers conc nade can bring you from 100 hp to about 25 hp. You could individually adjust all weapons, or just make it so that when you hold block you get the 20% dmg reduction. It won't affect swinging, because if you swingblock you get interrupted and block the blaster bolt, and if u don't swingblock you're not holding block, thus no dmg reduction. It is a better solution than individually changing all mechanics to deal less dmg, and adjusting values endlessly, and jedi/sith will still take huge dmg when they should, aka shot when swinging etc.

In any case, I think the more volatile gameplay direction is right, but utility is too strong atm, and raw gunner fp drain is too weak due to the 200ms rule. And DR normalization would help too.

--

In a volatile system it would also make sense to have force powers that heal. I think as a base, all sith/jedi should be able to get both speed and some sort of healing. /discuss.

--

Over all, I feel this is the right direction to go in. It's certainly alot more fun to play open now than it was before but there are many values that need to be looked at, damages in general.

 

[Manyo]

Alright, i'm going to point it out for everyone because many are confused already. E-11 secondary fire FP drain isn't low, clone rifle 3 FP drain isn't low, it's something else, this:

• Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.

This effectively nerfs all high rate of fire weapons against blocking jedi, or multiple people shooting. With this, if you want to destroy a jedi's FP you're better off using low ROF weapons or even tapping attack when you have a higher ROF weapon. I am not 100% sure it's the perfect feature to have given how many people seem to be confused about it already, but i believe it has great potential. If there's an overwhelming negative feedback though i guess it'll be better to just have no special feature like this and just reduce blocking & running drains a little bit more overall.

That still results in the total FP drain beeing pretty damn low while using secondary fire. Or would me tapping secondary exactly every 200ms have a higher total?
Using low ROF weapons/modes versus saberists doesn't feel right to me. When someone is rushing at me i want to use my full firepower even if the numbers are the same, just because it feels better. Using low ROF is also less forgiving which means you're putting even more pressure on the gunner to have perfect aim. Of course you can say use low ROF when he's blocking and use high ROF when he runs but that feels even more wrong.

I can see the argument for 1 saberist vs many gunners, but why not cap the total fp drain over time for that situation?

 

[Lessen]

When someone is rushing at me

No comment on the rest of your argument, but I will say that when a saberist is running these drain rules don't apply, and you're free to use all the high ROF you want. It's only when they're in block (and therefore not "rushing" anywhere) that the 50% drain reduction on consecutive shots is applied. This also means that it's still pretty forgiving since it's easier to have "perfect aim" on someone who's blocking, cuz they're slow af.

I do agree that the system works kind of unpleasantly in the case of a weapon with 200ms or slightly-below-200ms fire rates. Like if you have a gun with 180ms delay (CR1 might be close?), then you'll probably do a bit more damage if you deliberately slow your ROF to slightly above 200ms. Maybe. Lemme think through that... after 2 seconds (ten 200ms chunks), the 180ms version would have hit 12 times with half of those doing half damage, and the 200ms version would hit 11 times doing full damage every time. So, 9x damage (6 full plus 6 half) vs 11x damage (11 full). That is pretty annoying.

 

[President Bossk]

Alright, i'm going to point it out for everyone because many are confused already. E-11 secondary fire FP drain isn't low, clone rifle 3 FP drain isn't low, it's something else, this:

• Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.

This effectively nerfs all high rate of fire weapons against blocking jedi, or multiple people shooting. With this, if you want to destroy a jedi's FP you're better off using low ROF weapons or even tapping attack when you have a higher ROF weapon. I am not 100% sure it's the perfect feature to have given how many people seem to be confused about it already, but i believe it has great potential. If there's an overwhelming negative feedback though i guess it'll be better to just have no special feature like this and just reduce blocking & running drains a little bit more overall.

I don't like it myself. I think this will confuse new and veteran players alike. I there should be a small advantage for lower rate of fire weapons, but not this much.

 

[Manyo]

No comment on the rest of your argument, but I will say that when a saberist is running these drain rules don't apply, and you're free to use all the high ROF you want. It's only when they're in block (and therefore not "rushing" anywhere) that the 50% drain reduction on consecutive shots is applied. This also means that it's still pretty forgiving since it's easier to have "perfect aim" on someone who's blocking, cuz they're slow af.

I get that, but you would still need to switch to improve your fp drain if he starts blocking in intervals and slows that rush down. And that's why i'd rather have one mode per weapon that is superior (the high ROF one).

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Alright, i'm going to point it out for everyone because many are confused already. E-11 secondary fire FP drain isn't low, clone rifle 3 FP drain isn't low, it's something else, this:

• Being shot within 200ms of already being shot lowers FP drains by 50% until the timer runs out (does not refresh while already active). Reduction only applies to blocking saberists.

This effectively nerfs all high rate of fire weapons against blocking jedi, or multiple people shooting. With this, if you want to destroy a jedi's FP you're better off using low ROF weapons or even tapping attack when you have a higher ROF weapon. I am not 100% sure it's the perfect feature to have given how many people seem to be confused about it already, but i believe it has great potential. If there's an overwhelming negative feedback though i guess it'll be better to just have no special feature like this and just reduce blocking & running drains a little bit more overall.

I'd very much rather balance weapons using their firing mode specific FP drain multipliers rather than this. If we want a specific weapon to drain less, let's make that weapon drain less. Using something like this isn't working out. It feels inconsistent. This is definitely the cause of low FP drains that I've been experiencing. It's the inconsistency of it.

Let's find a baseline and then balance values weapon by weapon rather than doing something like this.