Dodge

[GoodOl'Ben]

Hey kids!

My passion has restored after a brief break. I've been playing around with the new Dodge to try and get a feel of it. Sadly it's just not panning out as it is a very unreliable ability.

A few notes:

• Cannot be enabled/disabled while reloading or shooting.
• Dodging the actual shots still drains Dodge Points even though the ability itself already does so.
• Most of the time you'll end up being unable to dodge because you're already out of DP required to dodge.
• Dodge regenerates fairly slowly.

How we could address these issues?

• Allow dodge to be activated while shooting/reloading.
• Remove the concept of Dodge Points.
  
• Dodge stays active for a set duration and then expires.
• Dodge also expires if a given amount of shots are dodged.
• This number is increased with Dodge level.
  
• For the duration of Dodge being active, the first 1-6 shots are dodged, the ability will expire afterwards.
  
• Dodge operate on a cooldown.

This keeps Dodge an active ability while making it reliable to use.

Thoughts?

 

[Gumba]

Summoning @Hexodious since hes the only one who likes this dodge.

 

[Stassin]

Hey kids!

My passion has restored after a brief break. I've been playing around with the new Dodge to try and get a feel of it. Sadly it's just not panning out as it is a very unreliable ability.

A few notes:

• Cannot be enabled/disabled while reloading or shooting.
• Dodging the actual shots still drains Dodge Points even though the ability itself already does so.
• Most of the time you'll end up being unable to dodge because you're already out of DP required to dodge.
• Dodge regenerates fairly slowly.

How we could address these issues?

• Allow dodge to be activated while shooting/reloading.
• Remove the concept of Dodge Points.
  
• Dodge stays active for a set duration and then expires.
• Dodge also expires if a given amount of shots are dodged.
• This number is increased with Dodge level.
  
• For the duration of Dodge being active, the first 1-6 shots are dodged, the ability will expire afterwards.
  
• Dodge operate on a cooldown.

This keeps Dodge an active ability while making it reliable to use.

Thoughts?

The current dodge via toggle does all of what you want in a balanced way. If it can't be toggled on/off while shooting/reloading then that's a very annoying bug indeed, unintended and going to be fixed.

 

[Jeob]

In 1.4.3 and probably in this build too if you use dodge via holding the class special it will restrict your movement while crouching.
Like you crouch and strafe left, hold dodge, you can't strafe right as long as you don't release your class special key. That could be fixed though, so far I only used the toggling method this build.

 

[Crusader]

I like that draining DP allows a window for misplay/counter play (poor preemptive use), but dislike it as the the rate of DP drain plus whatever discrete reduction in DP which is a function of distance*/level/hit location(?)* makes it a bit annoying to reliably predict how much or what you will dodge. On those grounds alone, I like the proposition.

Some questions:
If it operates now only during a specific time window, I assume you would no longer be able to deactivate the ability if misused?
Will the number of shots dodged vary with distance and hit location? Obviously it will vary with level, as stated.

* = please verify.

 

[Lessen]

@Crusader all those factors affect Dodge iirc, plus drain is higher if you're running than if you're walking.

There's already an E-11 fighting style where you run around and then slow to a walk very briefly very often to fire off accurate sprays. Since DP drains are lower while walking, I feel like the current Dodge really straightforwardly complements this style. I haven't practiced enough using it though to see if it's possible to feel comfortable with that extra button to hold down while aiming. I'm sure it is with enough practice though.

But I agree that there's a lot of variance to how much you'll dodge and that makes it.. muddy to use.

making this yet another topic where I wonder about adding more audible feedback. This game could do with more audio feedback, which reminds me that I forget to listen during duels for the sound cue of PB vs body hit, which is terrible of me.

Anyway, one example sound cue for the current dodge system would be: whenever Dodge is active, there's a static noise kind of like hearing your blood rushing, and the frequency of this noise depends on how much DP you have left. So if it's full then it's this high noise almost like ears ringing, evoking alertness, kind of, and as it gets emptier it becomes more of a dull roar. This would give a lot of quickly-reactable feedback to the state of your DP but could be hard to do in a polished way.

there could also/instead be an alternate HUD with a DP bar closer to the crosshair or otherwise more visible than what we have now

Personally I would really like the current Dodge style if it were made somehow easier to keep track of your DP. I like it in Hold mode where you can just turn it on for a split second to dodge a given shot, in theory, it adds a cool skill ceiling.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Honestly, I dislike the current dodge.

For many reasons.

How it functions, how you use it, etc.

How many people actually like the current dodge? Poll?

Would have preferred something like you turn it on, it dodges the 1st X amount of strikes based on dodge level, then turns off until dodge points regen.
Its not an ability I would ever buy now except for the lulz. And if its just for the lulz...

Dump it or change it.
So speaks Chaos.

The Chaotic.

Bow before his glory.

t(-_-)t

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

The current dodge via toggle does all of what you want in a balanced way. If it can't be toggled on/off while shooting/reloading then that's a very annoying bug indeed, unintended and going to be fixed.

It is not fun to use nor does it provide advantages over Dash 2 which allows you to shoot AND avoid damage from blasterfire at the same time and duration for roughly the same price. The big difference being reliability and the added utility of repositioning. You know that every shot will be dodged for the duration of the Dash while you can't know for certain that you'll even evade a single shot with Dodge.

The big advantage for Dodge ought to be that it has a significantly better evasion timeframe with the trade-off of not being able to fire back.

Right now there's no reason to invest in it as opposed to Dash 2 which provides the same function with more utility.

There's already an E-11 fighting style where you run around and then slow to a walk very briefly very often to fire off accurate sprays. Since DP drains are lower while walking, I feel like the current Dodge really straightforwardly complements this style.

I use this playstyle and it is not working out. The amount of dodges you have available if timed right is 2-3 depending on if you dodged a sniper or not first. After this the ability is out of use for 3 seconds minimum and then you will have sufficient points for 1 walking dodge if timed right. It is better to bank it up to full so you have a reliable timing window, so you'll wait for roughly 6 seconds.

The focus I spend on toggling Dodge on at the right time would've been better used on a good crouch, jump, sidestep, pretty much anything that will mess with the shooter's aim.

If nothing else happens to the ability, at least make it so that you know that while it's on you'll actually dodge something.

If Dodge stays just like it is now, it should be free so it's not taking up any points from actually useful and reliable abilities that do the same function but better.

 

[Szunti]

I love it. Although I only play commander. Good with the guns that has the five shot burst.

 

[Stassin]

It is not fun to use nor does it provide advantages over Dash 2 which allows you to shoot AND avoid damage from blasterfire at the same time and duration for roughly the same price. The big difference being reliability and the added utility of repositioning. You know that every shot will be dodged for the duration of the Dash while you can't know for certain that you'll even evade a single shot with Dodge.

The big advantage for Dodge ought to be that it has a significantly better evasion timeframe with the trade-off of not being able to fire back.

Right now there's no reason to invest in it as opposed to Dash 2 which provides the same function with more utility.

I don't know what's wrong with the toggling version which is the one i suppose you are using, but there are no problems with the holding version i.e. you are perfectly able to dodge while shooting or doing anything without any restrictions, which was the whole point to begin with. So yeah, a bug for the toggling version, will look into it some time. Also i suppose dodge 3 could use more of a buff for close range dodging, but the rest is pretty fine and powerful.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I don't know what's wrong with the toggling version which is the one i suppose you are using, but there are no problems with the holding version i.e. you are perfectly able to dodge while shooting or doing anything without any restrictions, which was the whole point to begin with. So yeah, a bug for the toggling version, will look into it some time. Also i suppose dodge 3 could use more of a buff for close range dodging, but the rest is pretty fine and powerful.

Maybe one is tied to user input (basically client frames) and the other is tied to server frames?

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

The key word here to me was...utility.

It's not worth it in my mind. Unless its a free fa ability, I will not be using Dodge in open.
Why cripple myself when I can employ abilities/items/strategies that are more reliable and easier to execute?

And you're talking to a guy who'll use pistol and melee instead of bombs and rapid fire guns half the time...

And still be..winning

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I like the current dodge, but it isn't useful for avoiding snipers, which is primarily what you want to use it for. I suggest a buff to dodge, but Hero should either not have dodge, or not have proj at that point (I'd rather remove proj).

So maybe make it so that toggling dodge doesn't drain DPs, but only getting shot at. Also I'd like more options with crouch roll, maybe holding dodge and pressing CTRL cancels into a roll, and reduce the end-animation length so you can shoot relatively quickly out of a roll. Also, the range shouldn't affect how much DP you lose, only the damage of the weapon you're dodging.

 

[Bybo4ka]

I like the current dodge, but it isn't useful for avoiding snipers, which is primarily what you want to use it for. I suggest a buff to dodge, but Hero should either not have dodge, or not have proj at that point (I'd rather remove proj).

Get out

 

[*Rhiannon*]

dodge is kind of a waste of points in the current build

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

dodge is kind of a waste of points in the current build

I disagree, I enjoy using it thoroughly. It is really strong against high-fire rate classes, because it allows you to leave cover. It is, however, worthless against sniper rifles, P3, and A280/T-21.

 

[Szunti]

I disagree, I enjoy using it thoroughly. It is really strong against high-fire rate classes, because it allows you to leave cover. It is, however, worthless against sniper rifles, P3, and A280/T-21.

I found it useful against sniper/P3 and charged shots and less useful against high rate of fire. I keep distance, move from cover to cover and wait until it recharges and generally have a style of stopping moving while shooting and strafing as less as I can to give space for others to shoot. Jump out with A280 on burst mode, stop moving for accurate shots and exchange a dodged snipe for a 5-burst on the sniper works sometimes.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I found it useful against sniper/P3 and charged shots and less useful against high rate of fire. I keep distance, move from cover to cover and wait until it recharges and generally have a style of stopping moving while shooting and strafing as less as I can to give space for others to shoot. Jump out with A280 on burst mode, stop moving for accurate shots and exchange a dodged snipe for a 5-burst on the sniper works sometimes.

The problem with using it against Proj rifle, and P3 shots, is because the rate of fire on those weapons are so slow, your dodge is typically only good for 1 P3 shot, and you're basically just guessing when the proj rifle is coming, the rate of dodge drain doesn't make it effective against slow fire rate/charged weapons. Dodging CR shots, or E-11 shots is way more consistent, because you know the exact times when the shots are coming, and they aren't as accurate. The potential for dodging damage is way higher against faster fire weapons.