Dash reworked

[S1ck]

My other thread got closed, however after playing last night I think I figured out what a significant problem with dash is vs. gunners and sith.

The fact that dash makes you invincible for 0.02 seconds, or whatever it is, definitely makes a difference. This second of invincibility combined with P3 gives you a significant advantage over other gunners. This means in any given gun fight, you can use 4 consecutive dashes and get practically 4 free shots without your enemy being able to do anything about the dash. The other reason why this is game breaking is that you can use dash with p3 to pretty much do an extreme pop snipe, or use the dash to line up your aim perfectly causing very easy headshots/hits especially with slower moving enemies. You can just time your dash into their strafe and wallah, instead 1-2 hit combo.

Overall I think you either need to make it possible for gunners to hit a hero while he is dashing or there needs to be less consecutive/higher cool down on dash and most players that I have played with/against agree. At its current state it is way too viable especially with P3. This goes for both Hero vs. Sith and Hero vs. Gunners.

The cons the dev's proposed for P3 is the low amount of ammo, while this is semi true, I don't know anyone who doesn't use ammo 3, P3. This makes this a moot fact as you have more than enough ammo unless you go against several really good Jedi/Sith that just deflect and run away, deflect and run away. I think if you slowed down the ROF just a tad it would be perfect. I just think it fires a little too quickly for the amount of damage it can do.

Also I would say that the amount of people using P3 compared to e11 (atleast on NA servers) is literally everyone. I don't think I have seen an e11 Hero/BH other than new players that don't understand how to lead/use p3 and how deadly i can be.

In the end, everyone who I have talked to on the servers agree that dash itself is broken whether its a small fix or a total rework is a different question. I would just encourage the dev's to look at it from a game play aspect and how much it can be abused by players who have played the game for several years.

 

[Preston]

QT giving you a grenade would be nice. I'd reduce the maximum amount of grenades by 1 to compensate.

Yes please, it would make it worth getting

 

[M@crobyte]

My whole thing with dash (which I can only really talk about as a vs Jedi/Sith standpoint) is it's extremely short cooldown and the amount it can be used within that short cooldown. Hex's idea sounds the best for balancing. I didn't know about the invincibility frames vs gunners because as a sith, it usually doesn't matter. If you attempt to dash while in front of a sith (not to mention multiple sith in Open), you're probably gonna get pushed and die.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

http://blocked_domain/znpvbj.gif

Just a hop in either direction.

This is what I'd love for Dash to be like. A key note here is the momentum the move has. This alone makes it much harder to spam to similar effect as the current one.

I would definitely be in favour of bringing back the oldschool Dodge, however I would disable dodging while scoped (could be made to apply to when holding the Projectile Rifle if this is not enough). The old Dodge felt like the perfect fit for a glasscannon frontline brawler class, but the big problem was how it interacted with the Projectile Rifle.

I think the key aspect of the Hero should be that it is a very squishy character, but has mechanics that allow a skilled player to make it very durable. This is already the case, but there are clear flaws in the implementation.

 

[Vitéz]

The sideways dashing in ME is pretty similiar to the MB dashing... well the ME version is slower maybe... however the ME version is working well against AI, but I doubt it'd be good against real players. If you make MB Dash slower, it'd lose its advantage via the teleport-like moving, and it'd be much easier to shoot the user... the spam problem could be easily sloved via giving Dash a longer cooldown.

Bringing back the old Dodge and making it to be unable to work while Projectile Rifle is hold would be nearly as OP as it was before. Yes, it would be fair in sniper vs sniper combat, but it would be unfair against gunners in close range combat again, so it'd be basically the same as it was for years (well, except in sniper vs sniper combat ofc). This is exactly why I suggested to create 2 "subclasses" (Hero and Mercenary) via locking abilities (just like the M5 attachments are locked), so having the old Dodge wouldnt be unfair for other gunners, and it would be much more authentic than the current class is... the dashing/dodging sniper is kinda ridiculous and gives the question that why BHs cant to that, if Heroes can (purely theoretically, not gameplay-wise ofc).

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I never felt that Dodge was a problem in actual direct combat. It was even somewhat detrimental at times since a very solid counter to it was simply running in so close that Dodge stops working. You'll also generally manage to lock the Hero in place as he's performing a dodge so it's easy to kill them while they're stationary.

 

[Supa]

Dodge before was just silly though, even after dodge points were made a visible resource for the player to see. It was an unnecessary crutch that didn't encourage players to get any better at positioning themselves, and it was almost counter intuitive for the purpose it was intended to serve.

 

[Vitéz]

@GoodOl'Ben A good Hero, who can both aim and use the Hero abilities properly could be an unfair opponent with old dodge, especially against BH and Mandalorian. Thats what I dont want to see again.

@Supa I disagree. Good positioning isnt the same as staying in cover. Dodge requires the knowledge of the used class, the enemies and the map too. It may sounds trivial (especially for experienced players), but it isnt for everyone. Anyway, Dodge was a very good ability to break the usual cover war, however using it badly gives a false "hope" to the user what could led to die.

However it may could be useful to redesign the old Dodge to boost up the current/old 100 Dodge Points up to dunno 600 (just a random number), but disable regeneration. It could be a whole different situation than it was previously, because the endless spamming wouldnt be possible. Adding this to my Hero-Merc idea, that Hero class (so without sniper) would be balanced, because its true that Dodge gives advantage, but if the enemy is able to survive until all dodge points are drained, they would have the upper hand with their better weapons/abilities. Hero would be forced to "finish the job" quickly, because the consuming dodge points could greatly reduce the user's winning chances.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

So any new discussion people would like to add, or are we in agreement.

I posted a concept of what the dash animation could look like, people seem to be in agreement it needs tweaking. One person liked it.

However someone brought up to dash should be ignored, and re-work dodge instead.

I strongly like the dash because its the best way to deal with sith without getting force pushed to hell.
Yes it needs animation tweaking and I think the range on the dash should be cut by 25%. The dash goes really far and I can't see why the dash should go that far, unless it was a 3rd slot upgrade.

I also forward the motion we need more hero models.

 

[AgentGibbs]

The thing is, dash was never intended for hero in the first place. The entire ability was shoehorned in.

Instead of trying to salvage it, what if we restored dodge to its former glory. Make dodge capable of dodging anything but with the caveat that it has to be manually triggered. Adjust cost accordingly and have dodge points regenerate quickly like in Hex's proposal.

I fully agree with this dash in my opinion was always a cop out and honestly made the class take way less skill. Hero v Sith is no longer about keeping enough distance to damage their force power or the aim of the hero its about the timing of the dash key.