Clone Rework Poll

[{Δ} Achilles]

I feel as though Clone is too gimmicky, and currently has nothing to do with the actual movie/series Clones in playstyle/usefulness. This rework I believe would make Clone a versatile class that is not stronger than the 2 live counterparts ET/Com, but simply more adaptable. The ability to be a mobile assault class, a mid ranged support, or a long ranged engagement class would be rather interesting, I think, and make Clone infinitely more enjoyable.


- - - Clone - - -

- Weapons
* * Pistol
Description: Same as current.

* * DC-15s
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 6-7-8
Description: Reskin of E-11

* * DC-15a
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 8-18-24
Description: The long clone rifle, for accurate long-ranged engagements. Slow fire rate, high damage, high accuracy.
Stats:
- Level 1
Damage: 30
Accuracy: Only when standing still, crouched, or walking
- Level 2
Damage: 33
Accuracy: Always accurate
Adds Scope
- Level 3
Primary Damage: 35
Secondary: Charge shot, starting at 30, reaching maximum 100
Accuracy: Always accurate, charge shot only accurate while walking


* * Minigun
Levels: 1, 2
Cost: 20-30
Description: The current minigun, with some tweaks
Stats:
- Level 1
Primary Damage: 20
Accuracy: Always inaccurate, more inaccurate the longer it fires.
Rate of Fire: Current CR2
- Level 2
Primary Damage: 20
Accuracy: Always inaccurate, more inaccurate the longer it fires.
Rate of Fire: CR3
_________
- Abilities

* * Sprint
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 0-6-12
Description: Allows the Clone to sprint *forward* only until his stamina runs out, while sprinting the clone fires inaccurately.
Stats:
- Level 1
The Clone can sprint for short distances at a time
- Level 2
The Clone can sprint for long distances at a time
- Level 3
The Clone can sprint forever, and can use crouch to cancel out of sprint with a roll in any direction.

* * Bash
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 0-8-14
Description: Allows the Clone to bash a target with his rifle-stock, extremely short range.
Stats:
- Level 1
Damage: 6
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Staggers the target for 0.5 seconds
- Level 2
Damage: 14
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Staggers the target for 0.7 seconds
- Level 3
Damage: 20
Cooldown: 4 Seconds
Staggers the target for 1 second

* * Reinforcements
Description: Same as current

_________
- Items

* * Pulse Grenades
Levels: 1, 2
Cost: 6-6
Description: Grants the Clone up to 2 Pulse Grenades

* * Armor
Description: Same as current

* * Ammo
Description: Same as current

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Blobs really need considerable skill or considerable reserves to work, though. Nerf them too much without offering an alternative playstyle, and some clones will most likely depart for the greener pastures of other classes. (This is because of something I mentioned over at Discord when this poll was posted - a good blobless clone is typically an excellent gunner and/or using a minigun, but an excellent blobber clone is most likely only 'good' without them. The class depends on blobs and inaccurate projectile spam to get anywhere, using its high armor as a crutch to compensate for the superior accuracy/firepower of other multi-life classes.)

Which is why I noted that blob prices might need to be reduced if you only get 1 blob per level. At 3 pts per level, 6 pts would get you 2 blobs. That's only a slight nerf from getting level 1 conc/ion blobs currently. Using high stamina levels to run and spray, getting CR3, and/or buying pistol 2 are all still viable alternatives for people who don't want to risk wasting points on a blob they might miss.

That's also why I noted that there's tons of stuff for clones in the EU that can complement other playstyles. Gunbash and DC-15S (a non-copy-pasted E-11 version) could be just added without reworking the whole class. You could move the RepCom models from ARC to clone (they're not very acrobatic anyway) and add DC-15m, wrist virbroblade, and/or regenerating armor on top of clone's existing options. I'm sure there are other clone tools that I can't think of off the top of my head that could also be added without an extensive rework.

Example ways to make DC-15S not just an E-11 copy-paste:

• Fires high dmg shots at medium ROF, but the base dmg decreases with every consecutive shot (similar to EE-3, but with variable dmg instead of accuracy).
• Some sort of stun-fire alternate mode that could also be used for anti-SBD/deka (the type of shot seen when the clones were hunting Ahsoka at the end of CW season 5, also the fire mode used to shoot Leia at the start of Ep4, since the DC-15S was the precursor to the E-11).
• Grappling hook attachment with very limited uses (perhaps buyable? 5pts each?), only allow use when looking at least 45 degrees upward to prevent the silly Spiderman style movement that happens in FA. (The 501st had grappling hooks on their DC-15Ss in the Clone Wars movie.) An attachment like this would make DC-15S the preferred option for mobility, while DC-15A stays the preferred option for firepower.

Ridiculous. An E-11 takes what, 21 points to max out? (I'm guessing Achilles copied the point allocation from the E-11 here.) That still leaves 59 points for clone/ET pistols, sonic/frag grenades or DC-15As, dodge or pulse grenades, armor (of which the clone has a lot more than an ET), miniguns, a second life...

Let's assume you just want your bog-standard two-life E-11 as a baseline. That's a minimum of 51 points, leaving you with 29 points. As an ET, you can choose between a grenade (maybe two, not sure), some ammo and armor, Rally... as a post-revamp clone, you can choose between a few levels in the DC-15A (just enough to get full accuracy), a pair of pulse grenades, some ammo and armor, a low-grade minigun, full levels in either sprint or bash...

29 points to spend on some small differences in the same 2 life + E-11 role that you spent the majority of your points on. Actually, when you put it that way, that rework proposal makes 2 life E-11 clone just seem like a better version of 2 life E-11 ET. This clone spec has a lot more you can get with those 29 points. You can get TWICE as much armor as the ET has and still have 14 points left over. With that you can get two pulse nades, or you can get level 2 bash + level 2 sprint.

Regardless, the point is that giving clone an E-11 makes it overlap too much with (and potentially overshadow) ET. New features should make classes more distinct, not more similar. There are already three classes on each team with E-11, why do we need more E-11's when nearly half the classes in the game already have one?

 

[Noob]

I don't understand why you are pushing for E11's for clones. I want diversity in classes, not different models being the difference.

 

[Crusader]

I think the clone as it stands has a pretty well defined role in the game. The agenda of this proposed rework and poll is to remove blob from the game as far as I can tell. A lot of these things can be added without an entire rework of the class, as mentioned above me. However, I can see that the current weighting of blobs makes it too good of an investment, however this probably originates from some of the inherent difficulty in landing a blob on certain targets. It is quite easy to hit a Sith, as naturally they are static targets. This is especially the case for Sith jumping at the clone as they follow a neat arc that they cannot change the trajectory of. This trajectory is quite easy to learn and is instinctive for most people after a while. Additionally, with the changes in the latest patches that have forced Jedi/Sith to block in close encounters rather than run, again, make blob easier to hit.

In which case, you face balancing the cost of the ability based solely around the target of the clone, which isn't particularly fair since it is intended to hit anything but deka and SBD. Sith, for whatever reason, is generally the most played class on Imperials from my experience. This means that the usefulness of the blob is at its most in an environment where clones can land it frequently. The worth of the ability is dependent on the composition of the enemy team.

The biggest problem with clone in terms of balance, for me, was that its ion blobs made ARC somewhat redundant. Clone became too good at dealing with every situation. With the nerf to ions, this has largely been rectified. My only other gripe with clone is stamina builds, but I think this is not so much a balance issue as it is a pet hate.

A bash ability can just be added to the other class special ability for free. Bash could then interact with stamina in that sprinting whilst using bash could incur a knockdown, perhaps mandating a minimum level in stamina (2+) for this to work. A distinction between the minigun and clone rifle would be nice, perhaps trading blobs for an improved weapon. Having the option to buy ionic rounds would also be interesting (perhaps as a toggled class ability for a certain duration/ammo amount). Augmented blaster fire would have reduced damage versus organics, but increased versus deka/SBD. The clone rifle already has a low base damage, so perhaps after a few successive shots to organics, ionic rounds may incur some brief stun (like an ion blob).

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I have no idea what magical bullshit has come forth to cause people to think that blob is an intrinsic part of Star Wars/Clone class that it cannot possibly be removed/replaced. It is a shitty gimmick that has never had any use in any Star Wars medium, and is not necessary to have an interesting, balanced, and fun class.

 

[DaloLorn]

Which is why I noted that blob prices might need to be reduced if you only get 1 blob per level. At 3 pts per level, 6 pts would get you 2 blobs. That's only a slight nerf from getting level 1 conc/ion blobs currently. Using high stamina levels to run and spray, getting CR3, and/or buying pistol 2 are all still viable alternatives for people who don't want to risk wasting points on a blob they might miss.

CR3 can be used with blobs, though - it's really a case of 'do I want more firepower, or a second life', nothing else.

That's also why I noted that there's tons of stuff for clones in the EU that can complement other playstyles. Gunbash and DC-15S (a non-copy-pasted E-11 version) could be just added without reworking the whole class. You could move the RepCom models from ARC to clone (they're not very acrobatic anyway) and add DC-15m, wrist virbroblade, and/or regenerating armor on top of clone's existing options. I'm sure there are other clone tools that I can't think of off the top of my head that could also be added without an extensive rework.

Example ways to make DC-15S not just an E-11 copy-paste:

• Fires high dmg shots at medium ROF, but the base dmg decreases with every consecutive shot (similar to EE-3, but with variable dmg instead of accuracy).
• Some sort of stun-fire alternate mode that could also be used for anti-SBD/deka (the type of shot seen when the clones were hunting Ahsoka at the end of CW season 5, also the fire mode used to shoot Leia at the start of Ep4, since the DC-15S was the precursor to the E-11).
• Grappling hook attachment with very limited uses (perhaps buyable? 5pts each?), only allow use when looking at least 45 degrees upward to prevent the silly Spiderman style movement that happens in FA. (The 501st had grappling hooks on their DC-15Ss in the Clone Wars movie.) An attachment like this would make DC-15S the preferred option for mobility, while DC-15A stays the preferred option for firepower.

Okay, good, that's fine. Doesn't have to be a copy-pasted E-11, so long as it's still there - otherwise it's just a blob-removal revamp with very few beneficial aspects to the class. (Yes, I really like the 'versatility' idea. )

 

[Crusader]

I don't really care if it featured in Star Wars or not, it is not as if I am mislead. It is a fun ability that has some element of progressive mastery.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Having the option to buy ionic rounds would also be interesting (perhaps as a toggled class ability for a certain duration/ammo amount). Augmented blaster fire would have reduced damage versus organics, but increased versus deka/SBD. The clone rifle already has a low base damage, so perhaps after a few successive shots to organics, ionic rounds may incur some brief stun (like an ion blob).

This sounds pretty cool. Instead of putting this on clone rifle, it could also be another way to make DC-15S different from both clone rifle and E-11. Maybe even have ion blobs moved from clone rifle to the DC-15S so they both have a consistent role. Clone rifle would be for high ROF + knockdown with conc blobs; DC-15S would be for slower ROF + stuns with successive primary shots or ion blobs.

 

[Antraxo]

I personally think taking away the blobs would kinda break the clone class. I mean it's their special ability - their special thing for their guns be it the knockdown or ion thing. I personally enjoy them even if I get hit by them since it's not just click->knockdown you actually need to aim it of course if you're infront of someone the hit is gonna be easier. I think having 2 blobs per life would be fine iirc you have 3 per ability point but I'm not sure. I just think if you would totally take them out clone would suffer from it. I mean you have that nice rifle that can shot fast as hell but doesnt deal so much damage but is still fun to use and you have these small knockdowns that can really help out your team if you hit with them. To me clone is just another soldier class with blobs instead of grenades also think a clone would be weaker than a soldier without some abilities. I think the class has no balancing problems at least not a big one that we should shine a spotlight on.

I know some people get upset with some classes but I think it's also really easy to ruin a class by overreacting (i.e. the blizzard way of nerfing/buffing stuff).

 

[chicknman]

everyone that voted for a re-work are shit at gunning and strictly play saberist lull XDDDD just my two cents

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I personally think taking away the blobs would kinda break the clone class. I mean it's their special ability - their special thing for their guns be it the knockdown or ion thing. I personally enjoy them even if I get hit by them since it's not just click->knockdown you actually need to aim it of course if you're infront of someone the hit is gonna be easier. I think having 2 blobs per life would be fine iirc you have 3 per ability point but I'm not sure. I just think if you would totally take them out clone would suffer from it. I mean you have that nice rifle that can shot fast as hell but doesnt deal so much damage but is still fun to use and you have these small knockdowns that can really help out your team if you hit with them. To me clone is just another soldier class with blobs instead of grenades also think a clone would be weaker than a soldier without some abilities. I think the class has no balancing problems at least not a big one that we should shine a spotlight on.

I know some people get upset with some classes but I think it's also really easy to ruin a class by overreacting (i.e. the blizzard way of nerfing/buffing stuff).

So give them a more balanced special ability? You're defining the entire class by one stupid gimmick. Do you not see what is wrong with that? There is also 0 counter play against blobs, *ZERO*, it is entirely on the Clone to either land, or miss the blobs. The whole purpose of the rework is to make Clone a versatile assault class that doesn't *need* gimmicks like blob. This isn't over-reacting, either, this is a thought out rework of a class, did you even bother to read any aspect of it?

everyone that voted for a re-work are shit at gunning and strictly play saberist lull XDDDD just my two cents

Want to try killing my Clone as any class?

This sounds pretty cool. Instead of putting this on clone rifle, it could also be another way to make DC-15S different from both clone rifle and E-11. Maybe even have ion blobs moved from clone rifle to the DC-15S so they both have a consistent role. Clone rifle would be for high ROF + knockdown with conc blobs; DC-15S would be for slower ROF + stuns with successive primary shots or ion blobs.

In what world do you live in, where you think a close quarters weapon that is smaller, and meant for mobile assault should fire slower than a fucking long rifle? Do you think spec-ops today run into houses with muskets? Your balance/game sense is so far off that I think it is in another game entirely. No one would *ever* use DC-15S in your scenario, because the CR does literally everything, high fire rate, and CC. You're cherry picking my rework to actually try to buff Clone, and give it something that no one would ever use. Oh, and again... BLOBS NEVER EXISTED IN STAR WARS. Horrible concept for a game 'Just shoots a projectile that knocks people over, and there is 0 counter-play around it'

^ This shit, is retarded. Stop pretending like Clones do anything remotely like that in anything but that terribly animated cartoon. DC-15A does not fire that fast in *any* fucking medium.

 

[Antraxo]

What if you just increase the cooldown of not being able to fire after you shoot a blob by like 1 second. A clone would become a support character and other gunners around him would appreciate a blob or two. He couldnt solo anything by just blobing it and killing it on the floor. I'm primary just talking about the blob because people get mad about it. Also the "never existed in Star Wars" argument is a bit .. meh I mean it's a video game why can't there be any fun, new and exciting abilities in it.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

What if you just increase the cooldown of not being able to fire after you shoot a blob by like 1 second. A clone would become a support character and other gunners around him would appreciate a blob or two. He couldnt solo anything by just blobing it and killing it on the floor. I'm primary just talking about the blob because people get mad about it. Also the "never existed in Star Wars" argument is a bit .. meh I mean it's a video game why can't there be any fun, new and exciting abilities in it.

Or you just remove blobs. Blob isn't a 'fun' 'exciting' ability, it is a retarded ability that has 0 counterplay with how it functions. How about we make Clone a class that isn't just a walking 'exciting' ability. At this point it feels like we're not even talking about a Clone class, but a Blob class.

 

[takuta pls]

meh I mean it's a video game why can't there be any fun, new and exciting abilities in it.

a point and click instant kill when you have teammates that aren't completely inept isn't exactly fun new or exciting

everyone that voted for a re-work are shit at gunning and strictly play saberist lull XDDDD just my two cents

by that same logic of yours, one could say everyone who voted against it just hasn't played saberist enough to recognize the problem
obviously that's not true, it's just how stupid you sound
regardless I voted yes not solely because of blobs vs sith as a whole (especially since lightning is also easy to use with very little counter-play) but because I genuinely just don't find gunning vs clones or as clones fun at the moment and I think the changes would be a nice breath of fresh air.

bash seems like it'd be fun to use albeit a bit under-powered. should do way more damage, imo

 

[chicknman]

a point and click instant kill when you have teammates that aren't completely inept isn't exactly fun new or exciting

o u mean like....pushhhhh... annndddd..... saberrrr....anndddd.... snippperrrr...... xd

actually that "logic" was based off the names who voted for a rework... it wasn't an assumption.. you're a perfect example xd.

That poll is a good reason why you shouldn't take altroll or this post serious. This is a classic example of "I got owned by <insert class>, pls nerf". The fact that most people asking for a rework are saberists should be evidence enough that this is clearly a skill issue. There are plenty of classes that counter clone, which saberists fail to recognize (takuta). The intent of this post was not to nerf clone, but to buff sith. Altroll's inability to play his favorite Star Wars character because he's constantly getting his shit kicked in by the best clones in mb2 is the only reason this post exists

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

I am not a droid.
I hug trees, and i kiss my brood mother good sundown every day.
Like a good organic, I vote to remove all clone blobs. You should too.
One vote to remove blobs = one tree hugged.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

o u mean like....pushhhhh... annndddd..... saberrrr....anndddd.... snippperrrr...... xd

actually that "logic" was based off the names who voted for a rework... it wasn't an assumption.. you're a perfect example xd.

That poll is a good reason why you shouldn't take altroll or this post serious. This is a classic example of "I got owned by <insert class>, pls nerf". The fact that most people asking for a rework are saberists should be evidence enough that this is clearly a skill issue. There are plenty of classes that counter clone, which saberists fail to recognize (takuta). The intent of this post was not to nerf clone, but to buff sith. Altroll's inability to play his favorite Star Wars character because he's constantly getting his shit kicked in by the best clones in mb2 is the only reason this post exists

I mean, I get quite a few kills using Clone, more so than I would with Jedi typically. I love ion blobbing Bounty Hunters and watching them run around for 5 seconds trying to dodge my shots.

 

[Lessen]

Blob isn't a 'fun' 'exciting' ability,

I have very fond memories of smashing speeding Mandos out of the sky and into the ground. It was exciting.

I agree with your overall points though, and don't have an opinion on your specific ideas. Clone is exciting to play, and blobs inarguably reward skill, but I agree that blobs might be better off with some more counterplay aside from general aim-juking psychic wigglefests.

what if concs were fired like rockets, by which I mean, when you right click, you are stuck in crouch for half a second, bracing yourself and charging your weapon, and then you fire. You would be free to adjust your aim up until the moment that you fire, but by forcing you to sit still and giving the shot an audible "wind-up," you trigger nearby gunners to blast you, and trigger your target to move evasively.

(off-topic: oughta be an FA map that's a fight between two teams that both have nothing but infinite jetpacks and infinite concs, and they're fighting on some very precarious platforms over some abyss. Some Mandalorian internal fighting. I'd throw in some vibroblades too for the hell of it. That actually isn't all that difficult of a map to make, as maps go. Mostly just need a good skybox and good design. I might actually see about learning mapping just to make that...) (I've had other map ideas oriented around jetpacks, and jetpacks+swords...)

 

[StarWarsGeek]

In what world do you live in, where you think a close quarters weapon that is smaller, and meant for mobile assault should fire slower than a fucking long rifle? Do you think spec-ops today run into houses with muskets? Your balance/game sense is so far off that I think it is in another game entirely. No one would *ever* use DC-15S in your scenario, because the CR does literally everything, high fire rate, and CC. You're cherry picking my rework to actually try to buff Clone, and give it something that no one would ever use. Oh, and again... BLOBS NEVER EXISTED IN STAR WARS. Horrible concept for a game 'Just shoots a projectile that knocks people over, and there is 0 counter-play around it'

The realism arguments are completely irrelevant to the gameplay. I can just as easily say the same of your sense of balance. And I don't see how reducing the number of blobs could in any way be seen as a buff. Whether or not blobs existed in Star Wars is also irrelevant, it's existed in MB2 for around 10 years. There's plenty of other Star Wars games that have used weapons/features that didn't exist anywhere else.

DC-15A does not fire that fast in *any* fucking medium.

It obviously does in the gif you just posted. It also did in the movies, so the realism/canon argument doesn't even favor slowing it down. 55s and 2m7s are both good examples of it being fired at least as fast as CR2 in MB2. It also looks/sounds like they fire some quick bursts at Aayla.

what if concs were fired like rockets, by which I mean, when you right click, you are stuck in crouch for half a second, bracing yourself and charging your weapon, and then you fire. You would be free to adjust your aim up until the moment that you fire, but by forcing you to sit still and giving the shot an audible "wind-up," you trigger nearby gunners to blast you, and trigger your target to move evasively.

That's another potentially good alternative to completely removing a core feature of the class.

 

[Jaikanatar]

That poll is a good reason why you shouldn't take altroll or this post serious. This is a classic example of "I got owned by <insert class>, pls nerf". The fact that most people asking for a rework are saberists should be evidence enough that this is clearly a skill issue. There are plenty of classes that counter clone, which saberists fail to recognize (takuta). The intent of this post was not to nerf clone, but to buff sith. Altroll's inability to play his favorite Star Wars character because he's constantly getting his shit kicked in by the best clones in mb2 is the only reason this post exists

Lol. No. Next.

 

[takuta pls]

There are plenty of classes that counter clone, which saberists fail to recognize (takuta).

o boy here we go, im gettin labeled as solely a saberist again weee
I never said there wasn't any counter to clone, I myself have quite an easy time killing them with BH movement speed. only way I can outstrafe blobs.

o u mean like....pushhhhh... annndddd..... saberrrr....anndddd.... snippperrrr...... xd

people who get pushed deserve it, just walk. a simple, universal solution, works for every class. blobs are easy to land, so unless your opponent is completely incapable of being knocked down or a literal strafing god there's almost no easier way in the game to kill someone.
ah yes by all means please compare an easy-to-hit mid range knockdown to a point blank saber attack that's easier than ever before to avoid entirely by flinching him and walking backwards
sniping is a lot harder to do than landing blobs, don't start

The intent of this post was not to nerf clone, but to buff sith. Altroll's inability to play his favorite Star Wars character because he's constantly getting his shit kicked in by the best clones in mb2 is the only reason this post exists

lol you shittalking him isn't helping further your point, don't care what your beef with him is just take it elsewhere

I do not particularly care what the intent of the post is, I support it because it brings clone more in line with other gunners and raises both the skill floor and ceiling. (it also just sounds more fun to play than being, like achilles said, a blob monkey with an annoyingly high ROF gun) same reason I've been supporting the fp regen/drain changes (though i only changed my mind recently) and flinch. clone is an incredibly easy class to play and I simply think it'd be better off with this treatment. Why even pick arc unless you want to have actually have fun when clones are just so much easier and more useful? Ions work GREAT against sbds and the only reason you'd need arc over clone is against a deka.

you seem to be heavily against the thought that anyone who voted yes is a decent gunner, which is pretty baffling. do you even know half the people who voted for the rework??