Another sabering poll

[Chaos the Chaotic]

It's a balancing act. Of course vets will wreck newcomers.

But show some mercy, or at least, play with your food sometimes lest you run the risk of starving.

So hungry.

Rather than giving game-play handicaps what is needed is re-education for vets and education for noobs.

Vets should be easy, do you enjoy slaughtering noobs and driving them away more than the oppurtunity to play and fight against more players than zil? Best fights I had in mb were give and take duels that lasted the whole round.

Also, I enjoyed slaughtering noobs or at least people that were vets that chose to specialize in other areas that just happened to be playing sabers that day.

Sometimes you like a challenging duel. Sometimes you want to slaughter the orphanage.

But with an old mod/game like this it's important to remember, especially for older players, to cultivate new victims.

Ease up on them, just a little, let them raise their heads before mercilessly crushing them into the ground.

You want to get them addicted, but not to the point where they OD. Live customers, sirs. Live customers.

So, to put it bluntly, don't always go all out. Let your shit hang out and have some fun screwing around and with, your food and meat. Yum yum.

 

[Karus]

"Contrary to the belief of many, a noob/n00b and a newbie/newb are not the same thing. Newbs are those who are new to some task* and are very beginner at it, possibly a little overconfident about it, but they are willing to learn and fix their errors to move out of that stage. n00bs, on the other hand, know little and have no will to learn any more. They expect people to do the work for them and then expect to get praised about it, and make up a unique species of their own.
Noobs are often referred to as n00bs as a sign of DISRESPECT toward them"


"Noob" is short for "newbie", another slang term that comes from the word "new". A noob usually means a bad player in a game, or someone who does not know the rules of a community. Being a noob is usually not a good thing. ... So noob has become an OFFENSIVE term on the internet. "

Don't welcome new players by calling them NOOBS

Right? But I'm not welcoming new players right now, am I?
I'm discussing with frequent players.
Obviously if I saw a new player I wouldn't greet him as "noob" or refer to him in such a way.
Besides, I doubt the majority of newcomers would take much offense to it.
I usually see them say things like "im noob lol can you help me", or "omg im so noob".
Let's not divert from the current discussion with stupid political correctness.

 

[Tempest]

Newbies/noobs shouldn't ever be on par with veterans or players who take lots of time to practice the game. That's just the default expectation of pretty much anything that has any desire to have skill involved. I think the issue is when the system is opaque or isn't intuitive (which I think is more what @KimmyMarin was referring to). Easiest example is how ACC/ACM works and has worked for a long time. I've yet to see a new player who isn't confused by the idea that you should be attacking less to do more damage...

 

[Almapa]

Right? But I'm not welcoming new players right now, am I?
I'm discussing with frequent players.
Obviously if I saw a new player I wouldn't greet him as "noob" or refer to him in such a way.
Besides, I doubt the majority of newcomers would take much offense to it.
I usually see them say things like "im noob lol can you help me", or "omg im so noob".
Let's not divert from the current discussion with stupid political correctness.

Noob is derogatory, that is clear. Usually in the game people ask "are you new?"

 

[SeV]

Noob is derogatory, that is clear. Usually in the game people ask "are you new?"

No it isn't clear. Calling a spade a spade is not derogatory, that is just called being honest. Stop this pathetic limp-wristed wankery at once.

Newbies/noobs shouldn't ever be on par with veterans or players who take lots of time to practice the game. That's just the default expectation of pretty much anything that has any desire to have skill involved. I think the issue is when the system is opaque or isn't intuitive (which I think is more what @KimmyMarin was referring to). Easiest example is how ACC/ACM works and has worked for a long time. I've yet to see a new player who isn't confused by the idea that you should be attacking less to do more damage...

Another thing that bears mentioning in relation to this, is the current inconsistency and yet reliance upon interrupts/halfswings. Why are there two different timings for halfswings? Why can you randomly 'save' attacks that then play insta after you've taken a combo? This gives the impression that there are inconsistent insta swings in teh game. Saber interactions over-all need to be tidied up.

Halfswings should be consistent and we should reintroduce some sort of consistent countering mechanic such as MBC. BP drain should also be the main thing. BP gain, BP drain. You should be able to more easily tell how much BP damage an attack did, rather than it having 3 million obscure multipliers. Things should be more consistent in general.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

yeah as a vet i make my fun of noobs not by stomping them but by killing them in ways that you can only do to noobs, like flying jetpack kicks and flamethrowers for gunners. one of the cherished moments of mb2 to me is flamethrowing someone and watching them run around unsure of how to put themselves out. now that's playing with your food.... obligatory: lol stop drop and roll to put out fires didnt you learn anything in school noob after they die

 

[Jaikanatar]

Bump. 58 votes is SIGNIFICANT in such a community, these people put 1000+ hours in. 58 people.

 

[Jaikanatar]

We desperately need less of this mind set shown in the images below. There are no dummy votes, and this subset of people are players who have played for years and have put countless hours into the mod. Of course they are going to be passionate when so easily dismissed.

These images below are quotes in regards to this sabering poll when it had 47 votes toward Tempest's patch.

We get no where when we dismiss (now 58 players) of our community so easily. I know I have thought about this quote many times as I sit frustrated with the patch, as I see no familiar faces that I saw for 3+ years prior consistently (aka vets have stopped playing. New players pick it up then put it down, yeah, but where are the vets?)

Beyond that, I have seen a lot of the mindset shown below.

Dev: "The vote doesn't get the whole community, we would need to run something in game itself" (Presenting obstacle to solution of problem)

Player: "Do that," (Presenting solution)

Dev "We can't." (So we're stuck at ground 0? We would need something in game, to take the votes seriously, but then we cannot do that? So what's the solution??)

Other dev "even then most people just want to play." (Even further dismissal of the problem very sad to see.)



We're running in circles due to the fact that people's feedback is being dismissed. The MB2 community is extremely toxic and many don't know how to frame constructive feedback without flaming, but the devs have also shelled up into these ignorant standpoints because of it. There needs to be more clarity from both sides and we need to STOP dismissing player feedback. It is absolutely hurting the game and its community.

When I began playing I saw a much healthier state between community and dev relations. There has been a 4 year steady decline and I would argue that many would agree. I'm pointing fingers because I have the specific quotes, but otherwise I am simply trying to urge devs to quit this ignorance, rather than flame them for being ignorant. The solution is simple. Take player feedback seriously.

Thank you,
Jaik

 

[Spaghetti]

Dev: "The vote doesn't get the whole community, we would need to run something in game itself" (Presenting obstacle to solution of problem)

Player: "Do that," (Presenting solution)

Dev "We can't." (So we're stuck at ground 0? We would need something in game, to take the votes seriously, but then we cannot do that? So what's the solution??)

Obviously because there is no in-game polling functionality. Creating one (especially one that's not easily spammed / spoofed) is pretty much the definition of non-trivial. Maybe before accusing others of ignorance, take a moment to think about your own.

Many things are under development right now, but there is a plan and an order of operations (the outlines of which have been discussed many times, can't remember how much publicly, but I'm sure some beta tester has leaked such discussions...). Sabering is not at the front of that line, but it will be looked at eventually.

 

[Jaikanatar]

But the problem is that this theme has been going on for the last couple years. It hasn't been a short battle or a one time occurrence. I believe it is ignorant to dismiss 58 voting players especially given the context of the small community we have going here.

The in-game polling functionality wasn't the focus of my rant, more so the theme of going in circles and not taking voters seriously. I understand that by definition it is difficult to have a perfect system by which people vote-in game (except an open-beta I suppose?) but I strongly urge you guys not to dismiss votes on that premise. Based on what I've seen and the theme that I'm trying to address here, I would expect that even if we had a perfect polling system in game, those numbers would likely be dismissed or categorized as insignificant or somehow irrelevant. I don't say that as a dig, I mean that honestly. I believe there is a bias and a theme of dismissal that has been going on for the better part of 2 years.

I appreciate the clarity in your action-plan regarding other things, but know that our frustration comes from the fact that this has been going on for years now. I wish it were as simple as - relax, we're going to look at the system but its not on the forefront of priority right now. I, and many others, struggle with that because the common consensus is that the devs do not believe the issue with the saber system is even close to as significant as it actually is. This is made apparent by the examples I've provided but the theme has continued for at least two years. We have been losing valuable players for the better part of 2 years straight because of this. Coupling that with the fact that we have an almost entirely complete build in the form of Tempest's build, which carries with it the spirit and flat-out fun/intuitive feel that kept players around for years, but we are not putting it into place makes it very frustrating for those who have poured 1000 hours into the game. To be so close to having the spirit returned to the game, for 58 people to vote yes on it, and for it to be dismissed as a subset of specific people is painful, confusing, and frustrating.

Where it has been killing me and many others is in the concept that we have systematically watched people who put hours into the game leave due to not only the direction of the saber system, but the complete disconnect between player feedback and the decisions made regarding the system. I do not believe that that withering away of valuable population is being taken seriously by those in power to help fix it, and that's where a lot of my passion on this subject comes from.

Your answer seems valid Spaghetti, the saber system will be addressed but it is not the forefront of priority currently. As players we abide by that and are appreciative that work is being put in and that it is on the list. But that statement fits closer to a model in which there is no denial of feedback, countless community outcries being dismissed, or 58 voting players from a small community being called insignificant subsets of people. If the saber system weren't in shambles and there wasn't a denial of this by the devs and dismissal of feedback regarding it, I believe that statement would suffice and I'd be quiet and enjoy what's to come. But that's not the case and I'm tired of watching people who have played for years leave on the premise that the devs are in denial. I appreciate what you guys do and believe you're capable of seeing things more objectively. 58 people voting is very significant.

 

[Dorito]

Tairanatar

 

[Hessu]

I forgot about this thread, amazing that we still aren't any closer to dueling changes... after all this time
Also total voters 77

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Tempest had over 2 years to get his sabering build released on time. Several of us including myself and viserys, were pushing him to get it done within a reasonable period of time. He wanted to be perfect and keep tweaking it, so it took longer. However, as a result of that, the team as a whole now has other priorities because we wanted to get things in the back end fixed, and prep a whole lot of things for a slurry of new content which includes new classes. As a result, massive gameplay changes like the sabering system got pushed back until we can get those back end things done. We have been focusing on sabering for 10 of my 13 years here on the team, and its time to move forward finally. It sucks that it paused on a bad note, but there isn't much we can do there. We aren't ignoring, we just are a small team, that has to do things certain ways to begin to move forward more efficiently.

I, however, don't like when people pick and chose statements on discord that suit their narrative. Just 15 days ago we had a discussion about sabering on discord. Where I and others noted that things need to happen for the new sabering build to come out. And I estimated that we would at the very least see the open beta saber build by the end of the year, but I think we can get it fully released by that time personally.

We aren't dismissing feedback, we just can't address it in the time period you want us to address it.

I think this video is particularly relevant to the amount of times this discussion has come up over the years. There are many reasons we do what we do, but none of it is malicious or wanting to screw over a certain set of players. There are baseline rules for how you take feedback from the community, and some are outlined here. There is a reason we don't just act on a 77 person poll, and some of the reasons are in this video. Saying that those votes are "significant" doesn't even ring true if you follow simple stats and game design principles, again some of which outlined in this video. To know my background, I have a math minor and have taken several statistics courses, I know how these things work, and telling me I don't is ignorant and disrespectful as you can do a simple google search to see this:

For the population that has played mb2 in the last month, which obviously includes some new people who won't play again, but also doesn't include people that are a part of the community that has taken a break, you need a number of votes on this poll that are RANDOMLY selected from the community (not just from sabering discords) >= 367 votes if you want a 5% error margin.

You can't just say things are significant when they are not. As a developer that of course doesn't mean that we don't listen to the feedback, but it does mean that we don't change all of the things we need to do to bow down to it. Please watch the video before responding as it will help you understand.

We will get to sabering again, but things need to happen first.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Stop misgendering Tempest. The dude is a lady.

The sabering system is a mess and every person who liked a certain build previous will never be satisfied with any revamp, change or update.

At this point, I'd say eff it and give Lightsabers a detonate button.

 

[Spaghetti]

At this point, I'd say eff it and give Lightsabers a detonate button.

 

[[SE] Maren]

Tempest had over 2 years to get his sabering build released on time. Several of us including myself and viserys, were pushing him to get it done within a reasonable period of time. He wanted to be perfect and keep tweaking it, so it took longer. However, as a result of that, the team as a whole now has other priorities because we wanted to get things in the back end fixed, and prep a whole lot of things for a slurry of new content which includes new classes. As a result, massive gameplay changes like the sabering system got pushed back until we can get those back end things done. We have been focusing on sabering for 10 of my 13 years here on the team, and its time to move forward finally. It sucks that it paused on a bad note, but there isn't much we can do there. We aren't ignoring, we just are a small team, that has to do things certain ways to begin to move forward more efficiently.

I, however, don't like when people pick and chose statements on discord that suit their narrative. Just 15 days ago we had a discussion about sabering on discord. Where I and others noted that things need to happen for the new sabering build to come out. And I estimated that we would at the very least see the open beta saber build by the end of the year, but I think we can get it fully released by that time personally.

We aren't dismissing feedback, we just can't address it in the time period you want us to address it.

I think this video is particularly relevant to the amount of times this discussion has come up over the years. There are many reasons we do what we do, but none of it is malicious or wanting to screw over a certain set of players. There are baseline rules for how you take feedback from the community, and some are outlined here. There is a reason we don't just act on a 77 person poll, and some of the reasons are in this video. Saying that those votes are "significant" doesn't even ring true if you follow simple stats and game design principles, again some of which outlined in this video. To know my background, I have a math minor and have taken several statistics courses, I know how these things work, and telling me I don't is ignorant and disrespectful as you can do a simple google search to see this:

For the population that has played mb2 in the last month, which obviously includes some new people who won't play again, but also doesn't include people that are a part of the community that has taken a break, you need a number of votes on this poll that are RANDOMLY selected from the community (not just from sabering discords) >= 367 votes if you want a 5% error margin.

You can't just say things are significant when they are not. As a developer that of course doesn't mean that we don't listen to the feedback, but it does mean that we don't change all of the things we need to do to bow down to it. Please watch the video before responding as it will help you understand.

We will get to sabering again, but things need to happen first.

No offense but as someone who's dabbled in game balancing, your open mode is garbo.


Is there no way i can buy the mod for $1,000 and just fix the damn thing already? there's tons of potential here and i don't see why you don't unleash everything you have, and tease future updates to keep people coming back

 

[Hessu]

Tempest had over 2 years to get his sabering build released on time. Several of us including myself and viserys, were pushing him to get it done within a reasonable period of time. He wanted to be perfect and keep tweaking it, so it took longer. However, as a result of that, the team as a whole now has other priorities because we wanted to get things in the back end fixed, and prep a whole lot of things for a slurry of new content which includes new classes. As a result, massive gameplay changes like the sabering system got pushed back until we can get those back end things done. We have been focusing on sabering for 10 of my 13 years here on the team, and its time to move forward finally. It sucks that it paused on a bad note, but there isn't much we can do there. We aren't ignoring, we just are a small team, that has to do things certain ways to begin to move forward more efficiently.

I, however, don't like when people pick and chose statements on discord that suit their narrative. Just 15 days ago we had a discussion about sabering on discord. Where I and others noted that things need to happen for the new sabering build to come out. And I estimated that we would at the very least see the open beta saber build by the end of the year, but I think we can get it fully released by that time personally.

We aren't dismissing feedback, we just can't address it in the time period you want us to address it.

I think this video is particularly relevant to the amount of times this discussion has come up over the years. There are many reasons we do what we do, but none of it is malicious or wanting to screw over a certain set of players. There are baseline rules for how you take feedback from the community, and some are outlined here. There is a reason we don't just act on a 77 person poll, and some of the reasons are in this video. Saying that those votes are "significant" doesn't even ring true if you follow simple stats and game design principles, again some of which outlined in this video. To know my background, I have a math minor and have taken several statistics courses, I know how these things work, and telling me I don't is ignorant and disrespectful as you can do a simple google search to see this:

For the population that has played mb2 in the last month, which obviously includes some new people who won't play again, but also doesn't include people that are a part of the community that has taken a break, you need a number of votes on this poll that are RANDOMLY selected from the community (not just from sabering discords) >= 367 votes if you want a 5% error margin.

You can't just say things are significant when they are not. As a developer that of course doesn't mean that we don't listen to the feedback, but it does mean that we don't change all of the things we need to do to bow down to it. Please watch the video before responding as it will help you understand.

We will get to sabering again, but things need to happen first.

I dont understand why you let stassin come back and make sabering even worse than it was. 1.5 sucked ass and was very buggy and ever since, even with little tweaks its been garbage for years. Did anyone even test 1.5 dueling

 

[MaceMadunusus]

No offense but as someone who's dabbled in game balancing, your open mode is garbo.

We would not be on our 17th year if that was the case. Dabbing in game balancing doesn't make you an expert, nor does it make you a good enough player to understand how the overall design works. You've had so many notions that have been disproved by MULTIPLE members of the community.

I dont understand why you let stassin come back and make sabering even worse than it was. 1.5 sucked ass and was very buggy and ever since, even with little tweaks its been garbage for years. Did anyone even test 1.5 dueling

I had no control, and I was constantly screaming the entire time that we needed to knock stuff like that off.

 

[[SE] Maren]

We would not be on our 17th year if that was the case. Dabbing in game balancing doesn't make you an expert, nor does it make you a good enough player to understand how the overall design works. You've had so many notions that have been disproved by MULTIPLE members of the community.



I had no control, and I was constantly screaming the entire time that we needed to knock stuff like that off.

I don't recall anything that's been disproved, Adding more options and buffs for each class, is a pretty good idea for a gamemode called open. and with all the leftover modifications you can make to classes it's not exactly difficult (and no it's not balanced, and nor should it be certain classes should generally counter other classes.

 

[2cwldys]

I agree with all the points you had to make Jaik.
If anything you have always been rather impartial and simply enjoyed the game like myself, and as some dueling players; hold silent judgement over how the proceeds of the game are going, lingered and bit the tongue behind others when it comes to circulated patch opinion, and lurked in the dark when it comes to dueling, so it's good to hear what you have to say and it is clearly important if you have to come and speak up about it.

The dueling system has been this circle of discussion for years in Movie Battles but it seems to be expertly avoided like the cheese touch.
A lot of the players on this game is duelists. This is fact. A lot of the people playing this game is passionate about the dueling system. I do not know why it is so difficult to give precisely what the players (and in this particular case, the duelists) want. Especially if the demographic is majority (duelist.)
The dueling system is one of the most attractive features of Movie Battles for the playerbase, and is what most players aspire to learn and enjoy mechanically.

The dueling system effects open play, as well as other games modes, and while this is true; the mechanics of player-versus-player dueling doesn't exactly change.

There's a timeline and of course it's being worked on and it's not the "front" of the payload so to speak, true. The polls here on this thread simply show that Tempests' build is favored. So even if it's still being worked on, or refined. It's safe to say that majority of the gaming demographic of Movie Battles' (dueling) prefers a Tempest patch. So give them a Tempest patch.

With my regards to the Dev Feedback things you mentioned Jaik. I have to wholly agree. The main reason why the Dev's stance is the way it is on dueling is because of how players have been receptive about every little change in the past to where it is ridiculous. I have been a part of several gaming clans over the years on Movie Battles, and it seems every time a patch drops, before players could get a complete "grip" of the hilt so to speak. They throw away the sword just forged for them. In other words, I've quite literally witnessed in the very single, same day after patches were released in the past for people to go: "This is utter shite, this is garbage. The devs suck and they are keeping this shit game running. Why can't they do better?" after every single update. Even if /most/ updates released were to appease such complaints and incessant crying in the first place. It does create a particular stonewall when it comes to handling or perpetuating dev feedback, when the player-to-dev feedback is utter rubbish.