- Posts
- 72
- Likes
- 45
This is a serious post btw. Wall of text incoming lol.
Ever since I first started playing MB2, players have been complaining about certain force powers. In this post I will try to give realistic responses/fixes to many of the most controversial powers. Also, I am no developer, so forgive me for strange hot takes about design philosophy.
Force Pull vs Force Push:
Force push's utility and force point cost are the general basis upon which every force power is based. The main when complaining about force push we are complaining about Everything about the current force power point cost economy. Every power should be equal in utility point for point when compared to force push. Let us keep this in mind when evaluating this and other powers.
Force pull simply cannot keep up with force push. Force push 3 allows the user to knockdown multiple opponents with a wide cone of effect and accurately redirect explosions. Force pull 3's knockdown pulls the opponent closer to the player than force push and can take enemy's guns, but can only realistically knockdown one opponent, has a smaller effect radius, and pulling guns takes good aim. The force powers are supposed to form a kind of dichotomy. Push is for support, and pull is mostly for solo use. Pull makes the opponent easier to kill, so it is balanced right? The numbers just do not make sense though. Since pull takes more aim and has less practical range, push is just better in most scenarios. Push can be used repeatedly without having to adjust for aim. You can push opponents into walls to make it harder to roll away. Push catches players tapping secondary fire grenades for a hard-to-react knockdown. The only major disadvantage that push cannot really compensate for is that if enemies walk, the push helps them gain ground. This is made up for in the fact that you can push people off of ledges. AS for weapon pulling, if you have your weapon pulled you are usually going to die too quickly to care.
Have you noticed a big problem here? We are talking about push and pull as if they cost the same amount of points. They don't. Push is cheaper than pull.
Why have we not fixed this. Because of the point economy. Consider: If we make push cost more, than combo powers like lightning and grip push become harder to spec into. Bad result. If we decrease the price of pull, super push becomes too cheap. Annoying result. The point economy is too delicately balanced to handle such a change. The best option is to reduce the cost of pull, and that leads to some really weird loadouts.
So how can we fix this? I can only think of 2 viable solutions. Either we buff pull or nerf push. "RaDiCaL iDeA," you say sarcastically, "Why don't we just restore flinch too huh?" I know that this has been talked about to death here and in game, but let us just think about what we talked about for a second. Push and pull form a sort of dichotomy. We can focus the potential nerf/buff targets with this in mind. Push could have a slightly increase force point cost to encourage team/cover play. This would also make it harder to use offensively. Alternatively, pull could be given a quicker animation so the player is less likely to be hit in a 1v1.
Ok but what about the nuclear option. Rework ideas? Push could be reworked to have 4 tiers instead of 3. The first second and third tiers would only affect players in the same radius as pull, or the push would be weaker on the outer parts of the radius. That could be given to the fourth tier. This rework solves the point economy problems in exchange for making it less of a beginner friendly power. This may not be worth the exchange. Pull could be changed to be a more unique power by focusing on its strengths. What if the initial pull of pull 3 was the same, but you could hold the force power button to keep dragging the enemy closer if you are successful. This would differ from grip because it would only work on knockdown. This would be cool and make the power more worth it, but the power would get complaints like no tomorrow.
Edit: My opinions have changed a lot here, and I think pull is better than I did back then, but I will leave this first section here for analysis purposes anyway.
Force Sense:
We have recently heard rumblings about this power in this post. Force Sense OP
Read through this if you want to hear the opinions about sense. It is too powerful in a group setting and even a bit in 1v1's. Force sense is supposed to be a support power, and throughout all of our changes we need to remember to keep it that way.
I can see no way to properly nerf force sense in a meaningful way here, so I will skip to the reworks. The main idea that I see posted around is that sense should be a kind of radar pulse power. This uh does not really fix much. I see the point, but most people just use sense in small bursts anyway. This would only really work if accompanied with a lower range, and even then would just make it less useful in 1v1's.
I propose a full rework of the power to reward the player for being perceptive and allow enemies to counter the ability.
Level 1: The Jedi can hear sounds from farther away. Footsteps are louder. Sounds 2.5 meters and closer are muted. (Exception: the player can hear MT user's footsteps)
Level 2: The power increases in range.
Level 3: The Jedi can see any player that has fired a blaster, used a force power or taken damage on the mini map for 5 seconds.
Meditating negates force cost and increases the mini map radius at this level.
This version of sense would be much less powerful than the current version. We may even have to compromise and maybe let meditating level 3's see through walls if a player shoots. Other than this I see no balance issues. Player cannot abuse wallhacks anymore, there is a penalty for using the power at close range (the muted dead zone), and players can counter the power by crouching or faking rushes by having teammates run around. I would like to hear more thoughts on this to see if this has some weird OP application, but I think that my idea is solid. The force cost should be a bit cheaper than regular sense is so the player can focus on sound.
"But deaf people can't hear the sounds at all!" Uh. Um. Compatibility mode that mutes the game and visualizes sounds? Idk. Sue me.
Mind Trick:
For context and alternative takes: Mind trick needs a specific buff Alt Mind Trick
I will keep this short because the other ones were wayyy too long. Mind trick just never feels useful to me compared to the other powers. Going invisible is cool and all but you either just hide and mess with your enemies or try and fail to slice someone. It never even feels like a "mind trick". I took inspiration from Ronin/Fluffy's ideas one of the above posts. Inverted controls seem like too much for team play to me. Maybe this should just be a different power.
The power would have a longer start up and sound cue. The power would also only effect one opponent at a time. You don not turn off your saber while MT'ing. All effects last for
Level 1: Hides your enemy's stats from view. The Jedi shows up as a friendly and the player's teammates show up as enemies when lit up by the reticule. Forces a taunt.
Level 2: The player's weapon mode is switched. Saber style for Jedi. The enemy also suffers from reversed firing modes. (Primary fires secondary and vice versa)
Level 3: The enemy has the illusion of suffering from poison, fire, or can hear enemy taunts from random directions.
This change lets Jedi bully a single target but allows for counter play. This still retains the trickster nature of the power while removing some of the stupidity.
Force Lightning:
Ok ok really simple changes. First, make it so you can backpedal from lightning easier than running towards the Sith. This gives soldiers a chance if the Sith does not corner them first. Second, please make it so you can hold use to skip lightning push when you have push 3 and lightning 3 in melee. Sometimes you just want to zap someone for a bit without the wasted FP. This could be used to make players think that you have already used up your push, but lightning push has an extra sound effect to listen for.
That is it for now. I will edit this if I have better ideas or hear good suggestions.
TLDR Just remove all force powers.
Ever since I first started playing MB2, players have been complaining about certain force powers. In this post I will try to give realistic responses/fixes to many of the most controversial powers. Also, I am no developer, so forgive me for strange hot takes about design philosophy.
Force Pull vs Force Push:
Force push's utility and force point cost are the general basis upon which every force power is based. The main when complaining about force push we are complaining about Everything about the current force power point cost economy. Every power should be equal in utility point for point when compared to force push. Let us keep this in mind when evaluating this and other powers.
Force pull simply cannot keep up with force push. Force push 3 allows the user to knockdown multiple opponents with a wide cone of effect and accurately redirect explosions. Force pull 3's knockdown pulls the opponent closer to the player than force push and can take enemy's guns, but can only realistically knockdown one opponent, has a smaller effect radius, and pulling guns takes good aim. The force powers are supposed to form a kind of dichotomy. Push is for support, and pull is mostly for solo use. Pull makes the opponent easier to kill, so it is balanced right? The numbers just do not make sense though. Since pull takes more aim and has less practical range, push is just better in most scenarios. Push can be used repeatedly without having to adjust for aim. You can push opponents into walls to make it harder to roll away. Push catches players tapping secondary fire grenades for a hard-to-react knockdown. The only major disadvantage that push cannot really compensate for is that if enemies walk, the push helps them gain ground. This is made up for in the fact that you can push people off of ledges. AS for weapon pulling, if you have your weapon pulled you are usually going to die too quickly to care.
Have you noticed a big problem here? We are talking about push and pull as if they cost the same amount of points. They don't. Push is cheaper than pull.
Why have we not fixed this. Because of the point economy. Consider: If we make push cost more, than combo powers like lightning and grip push become harder to spec into. Bad result. If we decrease the price of pull, super push becomes too cheap. Annoying result. The point economy is too delicately balanced to handle such a change. The best option is to reduce the cost of pull, and that leads to some really weird loadouts.
So how can we fix this? I can only think of 2 viable solutions. Either we buff pull or nerf push. "RaDiCaL iDeA," you say sarcastically, "Why don't we just restore flinch too huh?" I know that this has been talked about to death here and in game, but let us just think about what we talked about for a second. Push and pull form a sort of dichotomy. We can focus the potential nerf/buff targets with this in mind. Push could have a slightly increase force point cost to encourage team/cover play. This would also make it harder to use offensively. Alternatively, pull could be given a quicker animation so the player is less likely to be hit in a 1v1.
Ok but what about the nuclear option. Rework ideas? Push could be reworked to have 4 tiers instead of 3. The first second and third tiers would only affect players in the same radius as pull, or the push would be weaker on the outer parts of the radius. That could be given to the fourth tier. This rework solves the point economy problems in exchange for making it less of a beginner friendly power. This may not be worth the exchange. Pull could be changed to be a more unique power by focusing on its strengths. What if the initial pull of pull 3 was the same, but you could hold the force power button to keep dragging the enemy closer if you are successful. This would differ from grip because it would only work on knockdown. This would be cool and make the power more worth it, but the power would get complaints like no tomorrow.
Edit: My opinions have changed a lot here, and I think pull is better than I did back then, but I will leave this first section here for analysis purposes anyway.
Force Sense:
We have recently heard rumblings about this power in this post. Force Sense OP
Read through this if you want to hear the opinions about sense. It is too powerful in a group setting and even a bit in 1v1's. Force sense is supposed to be a support power, and throughout all of our changes we need to remember to keep it that way.
I can see no way to properly nerf force sense in a meaningful way here, so I will skip to the reworks. The main idea that I see posted around is that sense should be a kind of radar pulse power. This uh does not really fix much. I see the point, but most people just use sense in small bursts anyway. This would only really work if accompanied with a lower range, and even then would just make it less useful in 1v1's.
I propose a full rework of the power to reward the player for being perceptive and allow enemies to counter the ability.
Level 1: The Jedi can hear sounds from farther away. Footsteps are louder. Sounds 2.5 meters and closer are muted. (Exception: the player can hear MT user's footsteps)
Level 2: The power increases in range.
Level 3: The Jedi can see any player that has fired a blaster, used a force power or taken damage on the mini map for 5 seconds.
Meditating negates force cost and increases the mini map radius at this level.
This version of sense would be much less powerful than the current version. We may even have to compromise and maybe let meditating level 3's see through walls if a player shoots. Other than this I see no balance issues. Player cannot abuse wallhacks anymore, there is a penalty for using the power at close range (the muted dead zone), and players can counter the power by crouching or faking rushes by having teammates run around. I would like to hear more thoughts on this to see if this has some weird OP application, but I think that my idea is solid. The force cost should be a bit cheaper than regular sense is so the player can focus on sound.
"But deaf people can't hear the sounds at all!" Uh. Um. Compatibility mode that mutes the game and visualizes sounds? Idk. Sue me.
Mind Trick:
For context and alternative takes: Mind trick needs a specific buff Alt Mind Trick
I will keep this short because the other ones were wayyy too long. Mind trick just never feels useful to me compared to the other powers. Going invisible is cool and all but you either just hide and mess with your enemies or try and fail to slice someone. It never even feels like a "mind trick". I took inspiration from Ronin/Fluffy's ideas one of the above posts. Inverted controls seem like too much for team play to me. Maybe this should just be a different power.
The power would have a longer start up and sound cue. The power would also only effect one opponent at a time. You don not turn off your saber while MT'ing. All effects last for
Level 1: Hides your enemy's stats from view. The Jedi shows up as a friendly and the player's teammates show up as enemies when lit up by the reticule. Forces a taunt.
Level 2: The player's weapon mode is switched. Saber style for Jedi. The enemy also suffers from reversed firing modes. (Primary fires secondary and vice versa)
Level 3: The enemy has the illusion of suffering from poison, fire, or can hear enemy taunts from random directions.
This change lets Jedi bully a single target but allows for counter play. This still retains the trickster nature of the power while removing some of the stupidity.
Force Lightning:
Ok ok really simple changes. First, make it so you can backpedal from lightning easier than running towards the Sith. This gives soldiers a chance if the Sith does not corner them first. Second, please make it so you can hold use to skip lightning push when you have push 3 and lightning 3 in melee. Sometimes you just want to zap someone for a bit without the wasted FP. This could be used to make players think that you have already used up your push, but lightning push has an extra sound effect to listen for.
That is it for now. I will edit this if I have better ideas or hear good suggestions.
TLDR Just remove all force powers.
Last edited: