Saber vs Gunner

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Hi there people,

Id like to discuss the current state of jedi vs gunner and see what you guys think about it.

First off, to avoid misunderstandings and drama I don´t mean to bash on devs. I started playing more than 10 years ago and the fact that im still here probes I really love the game and appreciate devs work, thank you.

To have some perspective on how strong jedi/sith is vs gunner, I´m going to list some of the buff and nerfs they have received since RC1.
Why compare it to RC1? Because it was a pretty popular patch, most of the community really liked it and in my opinion jedi/sith were already the strongest class back them (needless to say they are even stronger now)

Please keep in mind, I haven't studied through all the patch notes since RC1 until now. These are the changes I notice while playing the game everyday and therefore some of the facts I mention here may not be 100% accurate so please let me know if there's something wrong.

Why is jedi/sith the strongest class in the game? Its called VERSATILITY. It has a huge skill ceiling which is a great thing so pro jedi feel rewarded.
The class offers so many different tools and allows for several different gameplay styles.

They have some unique abilities like a wallhack, imo any build you play in open should have at least sense 1. Most op skill in the game period.
Sabers are the only weapon that can kill through walls, floors.
Jedi vertical mobility is a great advantage, they can scape sticky situations or ambush enemies using heights.

Did you really heared Hexo, Thera, M00, Zerobot, Shocker, 0000000, Ephont or whoever was considered pro jedi in rc1 complaining their class was too weak? No, because it was already strong back them.

In the current patch, a noob Jedi can rush like a damn Berserker looking to enter the Valhalla, they tank several shoots and keep swinging that glowstick until eventually they hit. Here is where we need some mechanic that punishes Jedi for their mistakes (knockback wasn't perfect, but it was the best we had)

And what's the point for new players to pick a gunner as their main class? A new gunner can't kill an experienced Jedi but a new Jedi for sure has a chance vs experienced gunner.


Jedi Sith Buffs since RC1:
- Knockback removed (mother of all buffs):
After the Jedi gets knocked back his losses HP and FP as a punish for their mistake, but he has the possibility to flee or engage again, knockback doesn't instantly win duels, it resets the duel punishing the Jedi for their mistake which is fair.

- Faster switch between mele/saber: Another minor buff but they keep stacking.

- Jedi/sith Damage reduction feels higher than it used to be in RC1 (I could be wrong, it is just my personal impression)

- E-11 force drain per shot feels lower than it used to be in RC1 (I could be wrong, it is just my personal impression)

- Poison nerf: Not much to say here, solid nerf to an anti-jedi mechanic.

- Godcaster nerf: I dont see ppl playing bowcaster anymore. Wookie was consider a sith counter class but after this nerf is rarely even played. Actually rage wook gets more played than bowcaster and both builds are weak vs sith atm.

- Grenades drain half the force: Similar case to poison darts. Not a small adjust but a huge 50% fp nerf.

- jump kick + crouch kick: You see an enemy backing off while walking? jump kick him. You see you an anemy crouch at the corner? crouch kick him.
More situational tools that give jedi more versatility.

- Max FP drain per shot capped at 80: Another buff for glowsticks, they keep adding up.

- Blob nerf: Another indirect sith buff.

- Dual sabers give an unfair protection from behind, blocking shoots they shouldn´t.

- Mind trick: In earlier patches, the sound that tells the gunner he has been mind tricked was much more consistent. Nowadays jedi can abuse certain spots on maps where MT doesn no sound at all.

- Grip 3: Locks faster and also while being shoot. Pretty op in 1v1 situations.

- Cg_jumpsounds removed: Another minor advantage to jedi, even tho its a pretty small change, they keep adding up. 20 smalls buffs become a huge one on the bigger picture.


Jedi Sith Nerfs since RC1:

-Pull: Range decreased. A solid nerf indeed.

- Push: After using push theres a bigger window where you cant block.

-Lighting nerf: Big nerf that was necesary imo. Jump + lightning tap + swing was a cheap mechanic.

- Grip nerf: levels 1 and 2 are useless while lvl 3 is too strong.

In the last years the buffs have been way superior than the nerfs.
I would like to keep jedi skill ceiling high to reward pro and bring some mechanic that punishes careless play.

If you cant come up with something new just bring the old kockback please.

Thx for reading my wall of text,
DeLFoZ
 
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There are many inconsistencies with Jedi/Sith that make the class awful to play against as a gunner and I'm surprised these issues haven't been addressed. For instance, having an insta-swing out of a swingblock or straight-up ignoring a swing reset with duals/staff. I originally really liked swingblock because it let the class play out the round if they played well and not inevitably die from health trades vs gunner. I think the real reason it hasn't been addressed is probably because it is something that you can't pinpoint the reason why it is happening in the first place.

If that is the case, I'd sooner see swingblock in its current fashion go entirely. You seem to have made the decision not to get rid of DR anyway. Keep the DR, remove the swingblock. The class should never have had two longevity mechanics. Swingblock has just made the class too brazen, and with that, paradoxically rewarding. The measure of a good Jedi in the past was how calculated they were in their approach. Holding W into the face of the enemy and mashing swing-block until the system breaks down and you get your kill is a far-cry from how Jedi was, and how it should be.
 
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Grip 1 and 2 are still strong, but not for the reasons you'd expect. When you use grip on someone, it gives them two options. 1. stand there shooting them and get gripped, or 2. try to run out of the way. Now the big strength of grip 1-2 comes from that 2nd option, which most gunners like to pick. When you try to run out of the way of the grip, you are now running, and thus, you can be pushed or pulled instantly, and if you just stand there, now you are gripped. No good options for the gunner unless they can drain the siths FP below 70 before they can be gripped.
Also with grip 2, if you choke someone for about 4-5 seconds, they' will put their hands on their throat (The typical "being choked" animation) and once they do that, when you release them, they cant shoot or run for like 2 seconds which will give the same effect as the old Lightning stun, and an easy kill

The way i'd balance jedi/sith is like this
Nerfs
  • lower damage reduc a bit, or only give it to them while they are swinging.
  • remove the blocking while using jump kick or legsweep
  • buff E11 fp drains but slightly nerf p3 and dual pistols fp drain (very slightly)
  • Bring back knockback, but make it so by swingblocking, it'll just do a normal flinch where you take 0 HP, but increased FP drain
  • If you get flinched/knockback, make it so you cant swing again immediatly, (discourages the W + M1)
  • make it so you cant push/pull during the Grip animation, (you have to let go of grip for about .5 - 1 seconds before you can push/pull)
  • as much as i'm happy to see it gone, maybe bring back the shotgunning sniper (cant block proj shots at saber swing distance
  • Shooting a sith thats trying to grip you will not prevent grip entirely, but will instead just slow it down (increase the time it takes to grip them while being shot)
  • Lower/Remove Damage reduc on rockets/nades
Buffs
  • Remove the 0 fp regen on jump, and instead make it just regen slower than usual (jumping against a P3 is suicide right now, cause there is 0 fp regen, and its 2 free shots while you are in the air, and when you land)
  • Make it so by using lightning for less than a second, it doesnt lock you out of every other force power for 3 seconds. (no stun lag after lightning still)
  • Minimum FP for grip should be 60 instead of 70
 
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My idea would be to bring knockback again and maybe buff Jedi Sith, give them even more DR or lower the FP drain values so after they get knocked back they have the chance to fight again. Obviously its pretty hard to know what values would work without beta testing but nerfing Jedi is not the only option devs have, like I said depending on what mechanic they introduce they could even buff to compensate.

About jump kick I think it needs some change, being able to block shoots while jump kicking and knocking enemies down who are pressing the walk key feels frustrating for the gunner.
 

LanceOfLonginus

Internal Beta Team
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back in my day the penalty for blocking bullets while you swung was having no combat forcepowers (Q3) changing that was a mistake. DR is still a msitake. Jedi were always considered godly 1v1 classes in the hands of competent players. It used to be:
Great gunner > great saberist (sorry not sorry the powerfantasy didnt hold up to a good blaster at your side)
And in every other instance of skill matchups a saberist beat a gunner the majority of the time.

It's frankly bullshit that a jedi/sith has a safe option in pretty much every situation unless they have 0 fp. Now anything less than perfect execution is a death sentence and they have a handful of tools to completely negate your ability to fight back. When does a Jedi ever get cornered into an optionless death? When it's 5v1? When they're TKed? (lol)

There also shouldn't be VARIETY in the system of flinching jedi/sith. Either all styles should have it or no styles should have it, none of this have your cake and eat it too.
 
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