Perfect Block

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by Apex, Oct 9, 2015.

  1. Apex

    Apex

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    I've brought this up a few times since the cyan/purple saber system was introduced and here I am once again because I've had it with this perfect blocking system. I don't want to go writing paragraphs about this as I have numerous times in the past, but I feel the need to voice my opinion regarding this matter once more. I get a lot of people agreeing with me when I talk about this in game or via TeamSpeak, to put it simply, dueling has become a spam fest. This pblocking system has ruined dueling.

    Remember when dueling servers were more popular than open mode? I mean, I prefer open mode anyway but ever since the pblock system was changed (whenever cyan/purple was introduced, forgot the version) dueling servers took a drastic drop in population and have been on a steady decline. I believe that alone speaks for itself and should be taken notice of. Why would this happen if the system was "improved"? Because it wasn't.

    Anyway, getting a bit off topic here, I have too much to say about this current saber system. Perfect blocks happen about 70-80% of attacks, whether it be intentional or accidental pblocks occurring. Perfect blocks should be on the low end of the percentage compared to body hits, not the other way around! What this is doing is encouraging a spam-centric dueling system. There's what, essentially 3 angles to perfect block at now? This used to be one of the most intricate mechanics in dueling and separated the boys from the men. Now, it happens WAY too often both on accident and intentionally.

    What I'm proposing here is to revert the pblock system back to what it was pre-cyan/purple patch. You can keep the stances and what not, but this pblock system took the style out of dueling and the skill. Not to say that it doesn't still require some skill, because it does, it's just a really dumbed down version of what it used to be. There used to be multiple angles you could swing at, not just low medium high. You used your blade to defend your body requiring proper distancing and angling of your saber, NOT your crosshair. Skilled opponents could get around a strong defensive player by switching up the angle of each swing because there were more than just 3 crosshair placements to block every swing. Dueling now has become who can outswing the other, not who can outplay.

    I ended up typing paragraphs anyway but this system truly has taken the fun away from a system that was nearly perfect before this drastic change. I would like to hear opinions from you guys, although I have a feeling the majority will defend the current for some odd reason.
     
  2. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Meh, the current perfect block system encourages combo spamming. Makes for a not very enjoyable dueling experience, in my opinion.

    Single swings are generally fairly easy to perfect block, but combo swings aren't so easy.
     
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  3. Apex

    Apex

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    It promotes combo spamming because out of every 5 of your swings 1 will actually manage to hit (if that). Like I said, perfect blocks should be on the low end of the spectrum, not high. If faster paced gameplay is what we strive for, why make perfect blocking, which negates BP damage, occur more than body hits? It simply doesn't make sense. PBlocking was in a near perfect place prior to this change.

    EDIT: Correction, the ENTIRE saber system was in a near perfect place prior to this change.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
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  4. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    With the previous PB system (which always intended to allow PB when you somewhat 'looked' at an incoming swing, but never really did, while the current does - that's the reason for it basically), the bulk of PBing skill involved aiming crazy low, and walking back to keep the distance with your opponent, because swings from far away had less chance of bodyhitting. Saying that the previous method required more skill is quite wrong, just like saying that this previous method was consistent, and something you could count on with good aim (because it couldn't be completely controlled), is wrong.

    Now, saying that PBing currently occurs way too much, and that it is easy, is also very wrong; it might be true in your experience, but the only reason for that is not having opponents that know how to be unpredictable and avoid your PB. Because when you face opponents like that, i can guarantee you that PB is not easy at all, and the absolute best you will ever get is something like 50% of PBed swings.

    On the other hand, saying that this PB system encourages spam is spot on, however that was fixed in v1.2 by making ACM be gained only once every combo rather than on every swing, so that using only 1 or 2 swing combos has a strategic edge over using 3-4 combos for example with yellow style. Someone who doesn't spam will eventually get more ACM and overwhelm someone who does. So this is just a matter of learning it.

    Now don't get me wrong, i totally agree there were good things about the old PB system: namely and mostly the fact that it made PB more likely to occur when you kept your distance, and the fact that caring about saber aim was rewarded (for both the attacker and the defender). These really made sense; everything else really didn't, i.e. aiming low, repetitive swings being almost as hard to PB as diversified swings which encouraged attackers to spam only 1 swing direction such as the famous left yellow swing, and the fact that trying to aim at the enemy's saber or rather put your saber in-between his and your body was too unreliable (didn't work all the time no matter what, you can say that it took more skill, but with that skill you couldn't reach consistency in that you could only reliably PB half the time or some other percentage, instead of being 100% sure).

    And the new system precisely fixes alot of that which was bad, i.e. it encourages swing diversity, it fixes aiming low like crazy, and it is 100% reliable when your aim is accurate. On the other hand it retains the good things, why ? Because think about it, if you keep your distance with your opponent, then his swings will come slower, and you're inevitably going to have a much easier time PBing them. Which keeps facehugging as a viable attacking tactic, as long as you diversify your swings rather than just doing left-right yellow swing spams like before. And obviously saber aim as a PBer is rewarded, since that's 100% of what its mechanic is based on; saber aim as an attacker is also rewarded, because it helps making your swings look more chaotic, thus making the PBer's job harder.

    I'll grant you 1 downside of the current PB system: that it allows to PB randomly without applying skill, just because your crosshair happened to be in the right direction. An issue which the previous PB system also had although perhaps less so (because for the casual player who didn't know he needed to aim crazy low, PB would simply almost never work for him, it was very frustrating i can imagine, to have an inconsistent system), and that everything has, movement, aim, it's due to the randomness of what players do.

    I hope everything is understood (even if you don't agree with it); not the first time i have to explain all this, and i suppose not the last; by the way saying that the gameplay is slower is very wrong too; in fact in many ways it's just harder because it rewards aim more (less random, more consistent), parries are also more consistent (and other things too, due to hit detection handling fixes in v1.1), which in the end allows for more crisp skills, higher skills.
     
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  5. Apex

    Apex

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    I understand what you're saying but I do disagree with it. I think your interpretation of the previous pblock system is wrong. Looking down was more a viable offensive tactic as it was a whole nother angle to swing with and evade your opponent's defense. Looking down was by no means how to perfect block. In an up close battle, high swings required looking up to pblock just as much as now, same applies with middle and low etc. Creating distance between your opponent was the best way for consistent PBlocking because it created less reach for your opponent's blade thus not breaking through your block.

    I believe the system was quite consistent as well, it was just more sensitive and required a higher understanding as opposed to "aim your crosshair here". It wasn't about aim, it was about saber placement. Perfect blocking was 100% reliable, it was just a lot more difficult to be consistent with because there were so many more angles to swings than the simple 3 we have now. There were plenty of players who could pblock consistently and there were plenty of players who could get around the defense because there were more angles to use offensively than just 3. I don't believe saber aim is rewarded anywhere near where it used to be. Making your swings "look crazy" is useless at this point because like I've said and will keep saying there are THREE places to look at to perfect block now.

    I understand what you're trying to say but if taking the skill and style away from something and making it entirely easier is "more consistent" then you've accomplished that. However, the previous perfect blocking system was just as consistent, only required a higher understanding and level of skill to be consistent with.
     
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  6. Princess Dymbesh

    Princess Dymbesh

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    In a nutshell, this PB system has its up and downs, just like the previous one.
    Too be honest i like the new PB system, you're able to be a defense machine, but still has its drawbacks as noted: Unpredictable combos and spinning around (moving the mouse crazy as shit) makes it harder to PB.
    In a Certain point of view, yes PB encourages to spam combos, but only for people who doesn't see it as a whole, and who are clearly underastimateing the opponent. It's mostly on the player tho, it doesn't allways depend on how the system is, its allways on how the duelist is using the Lightsaber and his/her Knowledge.
    And to be really quite honest, i couldn't even imagine how stupid THIS Sabersystem would look with the old PB system, it just wouldn't fit.

    But since my lovely Empress cleared everything out i want to go off topic here:

    "Remember when dueling servers were more popular than open mode? I mean, I prefer open mode anyway but ever since the Pblock system was changed (whenever cyan/purple was introduced, forgot the version) dueling servers took a drastic drop in population and have been on a steady decline. I believe that alone speaks for itself and should be taken notice of. Why would this happen if the system was "improved"? Because it wasn't."

    That's a true fact and I've mentioned that many times, still many new players came and replaced 50% percent of them, whether they're good or not doesn't make any difference, those 50 % actually gave me a kind of hope for the Duelling community not to be "exterminated".
    It's not only about the Perfect Block and Cyan/Purple there are more issues which this Sabersystem is having, and most people don't even see.
    The Sabersystem still has potential, but certain things needs to be done to make it amazing again, to what it used to be.
    So, i hope many threads like this (about the sabersystem thoughts, suggestions,) ideas are made.
     
  7. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    I would like to see the old values and standards of dueling with the current pblock system. I think we could have something interesting going on there, assuming we were able to effectively limit the effectiveness or usability of half-swinging, which was the plague of previous iterations of dueling.

    I thought RC1's system was in a good place, and it was what I based Version 0's system off of, ignoring pblock entirely and focusing on the depth of the system itself.
     
  8. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Eeeh... @Apex i'm afraid talking about this will solve nothing. It has to be backed up with actual gameplay facts, i.e. i would have to show you in-game how it would be absolutely impossible for you, or whoever you think would be the best PBer out there, to 100% PB a simple facehugging left-swing yellow spam with the old system. If you believe that something like that or something similar was actually possible (imo, probably due to not facing enough appropriate opponents, although i doubt it), of course you're going to disagree, we'd have to make sure who is right about this by testing in-game with the old system. Same applies to aiming low being the most effective way of PBing overall (overall, because obviously you're right about high swings (by direction or aim) requiring to aim higher to PB). So yeah, stalemate, impossible to discuss this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
  9. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic Nerd

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    The current pb system only further encourages combo spams.
    It's too easy to use against simple attacks; too easy to abuse against simple blocks. :)

    And I'm really not a fan of the pb crosshair aiming. For me it ruins immersion and is jarring.
    Easy enough to do once you know where to aim, boils down to how fast you are in responding to your opponent's swing direction(and anticipating).

    But its asinine. Where you look matters more than where you see your saber is? Meh. Aesthetics are important as well:) Might as be playing gunner with all this focus on the crosshair.

    Other than that, makes it that much harder when facing multiple opponents. You guys keep making it harder to do so. As if the odds weren't already against you, lets put into place mechanics that make it that much harder. o_O

    I used to enjoy fighting multiple opponents. It was fair in my mind. But then you created so many more vulnerabilities with drains and blocking mechanics and jumping...its a shadow of how fun it once was to play the class. Now if you don't isolate you're targets you'll be overwhelmed by spam.

    You love teh spam. You eat it too.:confused:
     
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  10. Apex

    Apex

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    Completely agree with what you said here. And yes, this current PB system affects more than just 1vs1 dueling. I used to love fighting multiple opponents at once but with this system not at all.

    @Stassin Agreed. If you had the old system files still I would love to mess around and test some things out. Who knows? Maybe we can find a happy medium somewhere
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2015
  11. GoodOl'Ben

    GoodOl'Ben Nerd Donator Moderator Movie Battles II Team

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    I'd just like to pitch in and say that the new system does one thing incredibly well, which is increasing the skill differentiation between players. The system takes some time to master and can never be 100% mastered, so the skillcap is hypothetically nearly boundless.

    My personal worry is that the mechanic is somewhat elusive and poorly explained. There are no tutorials for players to pick this up from. This is not necessarily the system's fault, but more so just that the game's mechanics are often than not simply word of mouth.

    What I've been thinking about is whether perfect block is overly emphasized currently?

    Two directions for perfect block that I've been thinking of spring to mind.
    • Simplify perfect block to this: Crosshair on attacker -> Perfect block succeeds
    • Weaken perfect block's importance by making it simply reduce the amount of BP damage sustained, not completely mitigate this
    These changes do pose some questions.
    • Will perfect block become too easy?
    • Will weakening perfect block make comebacks based on good defense less likely?
    Solutions to counteract those questions could be:
    • Increase BP damage globally
    • Increase BP regen
    What are your thoughts?

    In addition The current system's biggest weakness in terms of mechanics is that there are no swing interruptions so once one player gains momentum, it can mainly be broken with a well-timed slap. RC1's greatest perk was the possibility of interrupting enemy attacks with your own. This made for really dynamic and exciting fights.
     
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  12. FRANK LAMPART

    FRANK LAMPART

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    Making it pblock when facing an enemy would make pblocking too easy I think. It would take no time to master and combo's would literally be useless. To your second point, I don't think the problem is whether it should absorb all the BP damage or not. It wouldn't exactly be a 'perfect block' then. I think the pblocking system is fine as it is. Like you said, it puts emphasis on the good players and encourages competitiveness.

    @Chaos the Chaotic speaks a good point about the combo spam, though. I think there should be a way to interrupt, slow or absorb combos more easily. Maybe through the pblocking system. Or maybe beef up swingblocking someway, perhaps?
     
  13. GoodOl'Ben

    GoodOl'Ben Nerd Donator Moderator Movie Battles II Team

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    In the past attacks could be interrupted with your own attacks. This is not the case these days as both attacks will follow through until the end. The first hit to land used to cancel the other attack. I think it served as a solid mechanic for this.
     
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  14. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Yeah, in pre-v0 builds attacks caused the defender to go in a blocking animation much like deflecting blaster fire does, although unlike blaster fire deflection it overrode whatever was going on. This disappeared with v0, blocking animations being removed (or was it rc3p4 ?), nudge etc. Probably reintroducing it in some way (decorrelated from blocking animations since those also determined counters) would improve the system making long combos less effective as was said. Or in fact, not exactly making long combos less effective, but making what's going on more visible and slowing down duels a little bit, since when 2 combos hit one another without parrying, they both drain BP and hits occur pretty fast; which would probably be good.
     
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  15. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic Nerd

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    The combo spam is really one of the most distasteful aspects of it for me. I liked to measure each swing and stick to limited combo's. And then the system kept encouraging more, more, more. Oh ye gluttons.

    Pb by centering cross on target is way too easy. Maybe instead of changing pb to that you added it as another means/way to decrease attack damage from the opponent.

    Another thing that propped up in my head is one of those styles I read about. Sheath the sword or its equivalent. Basically turning off your saber, sheating the sword and then attacking at a certain point.

    So....DOUBLE BP REGEN when your saber is de-activated:) Big letters. So obnoxious. I'll allow it anyway.

    I'd also prefer decreasing the defense arc size of the saber.
     
  16. FRANK LAMPART

    FRANK LAMPART

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    Yeah I've noticed a lot of people stick to red stance now when they are dueling and it just seems like a game of who can do the combo first. After that your BP is very low obviously and the game is pretty much over for you, unless you go on a pblock streak or run away. Duels do need to slow down a bit I think, particularly with red stance.

    @Stassin That system sounds pretty good to me and a good solution of it's implemented somewhat. There must of been a reason why it was removed, though, or was it just a general revamp after the official release?
     
  17. AgentGibbs

    AgentGibbs

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    I eventually plan on putting my thoughts to all aspects of sabering into a thread but until then ill just leave my pb thoughts here.

    The pblocking system we currently have is not a bad system however I do think it went from one extreme to the other. The old pb system not even the best pber could sit there and pblock everything, however now we have a system where everything gets pblocked even by some of the more average duelists. My thoughts over this in the last few days have been what if you could make the range or area for a successful pblock smaller but using the same system and areas. This would increase the skill required to use pblock, make one swing hits occasionally actually land (making them useful again), and thus reducing combo spam. To me this just seemed like a middle of the road between the two systems that both have ups and downs.
     
  18. Hexodious

    Hexodious Donator Movie Battles II Team

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    My thoughts on Sabering:

    Attacking vs Blocking
    More damage on initial swing, less damage on subsequent swings. First swing being the easiest to perfect-block, and as such would be the most punishing to fail.

    Swing:
    1, 2.0 Damage
    2, 1.0 Damage
    3, 0.75 Damage
    4, 0.5 Damage
    Ect.

    With this change I also feel the way AP is generated should be modified, by giving Purples AP Perk to all Stances while also making perfect block not block 100% of the BP damage and more like 50% (however Perfect blocks will always prevent receiving HP damage).

    AP Gain: Scoring a Body Hit / Scoring a Perfect Block
    AP Loss: Being the target of a Body Hit / Being the target of a Perfect Block

    Slap, Mblocks and Interrupts
    I am not a fan of slap, it feels like a massive disconnect to me and further adds to the weakness of a run-swing over walk-swing or swing-block. I would prefer to see the Mblock System that Staff has applied to all stances (run-swing = disarmed / swing-block = stagger).

    Also get rid of the melee special moves while the saber is out, its really dumb in open-mode specifically.

    The removal of slap could then be used to introduce special combo attacks (kata) on all stances and we could finally introduce saberlocks when two special moves clash!

    See Purple Kata - All stances should have something like this, and this be a nice dedicated button for this special action:

    FAST: Blue / Cyan - Base Yellow Kata
    MEDIUM*: Yellow / Green / Silver - Base Staff Kata
    STRONG: Red / Purple - Base Red Kata

    The above katas all have some form of movement associated with them to prevent them being overly static.

    *Why is this named medium anyway, wouldn't "Balanced" or "Versatile" make more sense?

    Perks
    I like the concept of Perks to add an additional level of difference between the weapons (I know we already have swing-speeds/damages/animation/combo-count/ap and special moves) but some of the special effects now are either too large or in some cases too powerful and that there are too many of them. I would limit perks to the Stance types.

    FAST: Blue / Cyan - Improved Force Focus (Current Blue)
    MEDIUM: Yellow / Green / Silver - Out of Combat Regeneration (Current Staff)
    STRONG: Red / Purple - Third hit staggers (Part of the current Red)

    The above examples show a specific thing each stance is good at:

    - FAST stances are great for chasing people down and harassing enemies
    - MEDIUM stances are great for getting back into the fight quickly and allows them to use special moves more frequently
    - STRONG stances are great for pushing through enemy saberists defences and leaving them open for follow ups or your allies shooting them

    Point Costs
    Are Staff and Duals really that much better than Blue/Red/Purple or even Yellow? With the above merged perks I say no and as such they should have fairer costs. The same is also true to rank 3, it really isn't powerful enough to be so expensive.

    FAST: (8) (0) (4)
    MEDIUM: (6) (2) (4)
    STRONG: (8) (0) (4)

    Cyan Specifically
    While purple feels different enough from Red in its animations and combos, Cyan just feels messy; with some attacks being too fast and others being too slow - can't we find a happy medium where it is more in between blue/yellow in speed and damage?

    TL;DR - Combine more things between the Stance types (less perks) / Change Cyan / No Slap / More focus on attack / Katas and swing locks are fun
     
  19. Noob

    Noob Nerd Donator

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    I personally like the current pb system as it provides less of a learning curve to the game. I think simply looking in the direction of the attack is a great system, although I think the new styles really dumbed down saber fights. Anyone can go cyan and beat a pro.

    If you look at this from an inexperienced duelists perspective; it really opens up the amount of people who want to play honor duels because of how everyone could be on a level playing field in some sense. I think that if spamming wasn't encouraged, a harder version of the pb system should be introduced.
     
  20. Zero

    Zero

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    The whole saber system needs a complete revamp.
     

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