My thoughts on the saber system in general.

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So before I begin to explain why I think the current system could be better, let me remind you guys that I'm not a master duelists. Of course you're going to think that my opinions be wrong or right, are essentially worthless all because I'm not good at the system. But remember, it doesn't take a master electrician to screw in a new light bulb.

The system currently.
I think in some aspects, the system is flawed. I don't think movement keys should correlate with your attacking direction. Holding down w, sw, dw and so forth can get a bit tricky at times, especially when under extreme pressure from what's going on around you. I'm not saying the system isn't efficient, because if i really took the time into learning all these combinations, i too could be very good at saber combat. But that's just the problem, time. Time itself, is an issue for most people here. New players in general simply don't want to put in the effort to learn how this system works. It's simply too detailed for some to handle. Many people who bought this game from the steam sale had no idea that this mod even existed. It wasn't until reading the reviews that they had an idea of what this mod was all about. Now that they're in it, they just pick their favorite jedi/sith and go ham on everyone who isnt/is a saber user. That's perfectly ok with me, because it seems like they're having fun. But what's not so pleasant to the eyes, is seeing those players react to a master duelist in a casual open environment. They hate the fact that, to even stand a chance against some players, they're going to have to put themselves through several hours of practice and training to even get a clever slap off to the enemy. I'm not saying that we should baby new players, but it's getting to the point where players are leaving simply because this isn't the saber combat they were expecting.

Beyond that, there are more concerns that i have in mind. Styles, and styles in general.
Don't get me wrong, i love the fact that there isn't just some one sided hit or miss system. Styles bring a unique way to essentially come up with your own form of technique. But the way they're presented, gives off a "this is the preferred style, don't use anything else". Sometimes i think styles are heavily based on what the community thinks is good, and not what the player thinks is good. A player might look at this forum, and see that the hundreds of people who play this game, prefer purple because of its offensive capabilities. He might then decide to use purple without any research, causing him to "abuse" that style, in a way. Or better put, not using the style as intended, using it because the community said so. No style should be better than any other, but be different to the point where a style's ability may become apparent in the situation its best used in.

Now comes the part where i poorly explain how we could improve the system by comparing it to another game of similar genre in terms of x to x combat.
mount_and_bladem.jpg

Meet mount and blade, a medieval inspired 3rd/1st person kingdom management game. A game's combat system that seems revolutionary in comparison to another game, Chivalry.

Mount and blade's combat system revolves around the use of the camera to influence what direction you're attacking. You tilt the camera up as you're charging towards the enemy to do an uppercut with your sword. Or you pan the camera down a tad to input a downward slash. Same with left/right slashes.
mountblade2008051523331xr3.jpg

As you can see here. An arrow points the direction the camera was just tilted to influence a left to right power strike. Now what makes this combat system truly unique is that the sword, the body, everything has a collision mesh. If a sword hits another sword, they bounce off. If you don't gain enough momentum with a spear, it bounces off the armor of the enemy. If your weapon isn't strong enough, it'll scrape off the enemy.

But we're talking about lightsabers here Alk, they don't collide with anything except heavy metals and other lightsabers. That's the point. This combat system would fit MB2 exceptionally, in the end. It would all come down to reading how the enemy ready his/her saber. If you see the arms going up, pan your camera up and block/clash/lock sabers. It's similar to how you would pb a slow red user. Seeing how he can only hit 3 times in a combo. left right left, left up right, ect.

Hitboxes.
Ohh boy, where to begin. I don't know if hitboxes are accurate or not. This happened earlier today to me, but its also happened to other players as well. I slapped a sith down and he rolled to the right, saber on the other side of his body. I was behind him, he got up with his saber in front of his body. I bounced off his back.

I don't know what influenced that, but i can tell you its not right. I found a picture on google that may have something to do with what I'm talking about.
exampleboxg2.jpg

Its apparent what happened today, that neither of these truly exist in game. I don't know how many times i should've been sliced in half, or sliced a dude in half only for neither of us to be physical harmed when a saber is in bedded into our wastes. This isn't ping related, don't jump to conclusions because of ping. Me and the opponent were a solid 60. Nothing more, nothing less.

To recap, and a mini TL;DR.
Combat needs to be updated considerably if players are to thoroughly enjoy duels/fa/.
Maybe new camera directional input? (Inspired by mount & blade).
A fix to whatever the reason saber's are colliding with bodies properly.
Maybe a few tweaks to the style system. Make it more user friendly and apparent.

OH! That reminds me, speaking of styles. Staff and duel sabers. I'm not sure how to explain this so let me briefly make a chart and or still.
PrUYxu4.jpg

Please excuse my over-dramatic representation of the duel sabers and extremely childlike art style. I was talking about this to a few members of an old JK clan a couple of days ago and they really approved of this idea.

This topic took me a while, phew. I understand most of you are fine with the mostly flawed system but please be open minded.
 

Subaru

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A few notes:

First:
> Its apparent what happened today, that neither of these truly exist in game. I don't know how many times i should've been sliced in half, or sliced a dude in half only for neither of us to be physical harmed when a saber is in bedded into our wastes. This isn't ping related, don't jump to conclusions because of ping. Me and the opponent were a solid 60. Nothing more, nothing less.

BBox traces are in the game. 96 percent chance that any missed\extra swings were caused by lag compensation. 60 ping is enough to do it. BUT if you record a demo with the buggy behavior, I'd be happy to take a look.

Second:
I don't see us simplifying the saber system much more than it is. Part of MB2's longetivity is its complex saber system. I'd rather hear specific tweaks to be made than "update and simplify".

Third:
Cut the arrogance. "I understand most of you are fine with the mostly flawed system but please be open minded" Puhleez.
 

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No idea. Hitboxes weren't why you liked rc1 though. Except for far swings when the opponent has no saber, they don't really affect much.
 
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I like to dream of better times. Times when you didn't completely wipe out the depth and beauty of blocking. When you didn't encourage combo spams. When every part of your sabers position in space and time mattered.

*sniffs*

A cruel thing the devs did. And for what? So they could put in purple and cyan? Bah. Bah I say.

I know the current hit detection is a pain in the ass. Even b15s buggy takes 5 swings at least bounced off a body and simply didnt go completely through:(
 

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Again - send us demos of bugs like that.
 

Stassin

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There is no way that mb2's saber combat is going to be simplified, because there are many players who think it's too simple at the moment and it has been that way forever. It needs to be straightforward once you master it, and it is, but it should definitely hard to master. What's appealing about mb2's saber system is how much freedom you have, even if a new player will have a hard time seeing that because he needs to grasp all the mechanics first. Using movement keys to generate swing directions means if you want to do a downward swing you'll have to run back, so if your intention was to hit an enemy who's in front of you you'll have to run forward again immediately after, which is not straightforward at first and requires speed.

In short the way to enjoy the saber system is to just practice and figure out things by playing, not try to look only for explanations that will only look complicated and not help you grasp the mechanics, because in order to grasp them you can't afford to just understand them you need to practice them (alot). It can also be extremely satisfying to discover things on your own. Of course it is also important to read or be explained mechanics at first, but after that you can only practice, and there is no way a new player will become really good in just 1 month given the speed of the gameplay. But that's where the fun is, the learning process.
 

SeV

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Yes, becoming very good and truly understanding MBII's saber system can take a long, long time. But it doesn't have to. It takes alot of practice, that's for sure. Someone like Karapuz is a good example of a player who isn't a vet and got quite good at dueling quickly by practicing and playing alot. Ofc you need a drive. I remember my early days in MBII. They were filled with obsession as I trained and trained and hungered for any knowledge that could help me win. Before MBII I was the same with the base game dueling mode. In 2002-2003 in jedi outcast and early academy I would come home and play for hours :)

I think the competitive nature of this saber system has it's flaws, sure, but it's still far beyond anything you can get anywhere else in terms of depth, variation and skill and it's accessible enough that casual players can access it without too much trouble, but getting good at it is another matter. You can compare it to mindgames and other competitive games where you can play the game and enjoy it at any level, but the more you put into it, the more it gives you back.
 
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Semi-related, I wanna know if there is any form of saber interpolation tracing going on... Just using the plain positioning of the saber each frame can cause weird things to happen, even passthroughs. Heck, if you accidentally interpolate backwards, you can cause sabers to block things they shouldn't block. I personally have really noticed such things though ( except passthroughs ). Just curious.
 
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My only complaint about dueling is not the saber system itself but more the lack of fun I get from most of duels. I rarely meet players who I can have a fun and lengthy duel where I will not care as much about winning as I will for doing some nice movies, trying something new and failing. I either face newbie players or duelists who just aim to kill me as fast as possible without me being able to do much. But that is probably due to my mentality, so not really anyone elses fault.
As far as the saber system is concerned, I like it as it is. I still have so much to learn so I would really dislike it if major changes happen...
 

GoodOl'Ben

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Which hitbox detection did rc1 use?
RC1 used Bounding Boxes for everything. This included hits that land on players. This is represented in the image above.

Nowadays we use Bounding Boxes only for saber vs saber when tracing to ensure more reactive combat. For everything else we have G2 traces. This ensures accuracy and no 'extendo' kills.
 

Supa

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My only complaint about dueling is not the saber system itself but more the lack of fun I get from most of duels. I rarely meet players who I can have a fun and lengthy duel where I will not care as much about winning as I will for doing some nice movies, trying something new and failing. I either face newbie players or duelists who just aim to kill me as fast as possible without me being able to do much. But that is probably due to my mentality, so not really anyone elses fault.
As far as the saber system is concerned, I like it as it is. I still have so much to learn so I would really dislike it if major changes happen...
The system was actually designed to not cater to long and lengthy duels. You can have them, but you and your opponent literally have to perfect block every single swing, or not get a single body hit.
 
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I see. By lengthy I dont mean like whole round lengthy, but I like duels that stretch to a bit longer than 15-20 secs, sometimes not even that long. :D It kinda adds intensity, fun... but like I said, that is just me.
 

Supa

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Yeah. Duels last longer based on mastery of the system. The more swings you perfect block the longer the duel is going to last.
 
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Well I'm actually glad some of you put your two cents into the subject. I still think some form of camera manipulation would benefit the system as an addon or optional feature though. Please also remember i made this topic in the dead of night when my brain was at its best, dead. So please excuse any random jumps in topics or structure.
A few notes:
-snip-
Third:
Cut the arrogance. "I understand most of you are fine with the mostly flawed system but please be open minded" Puhleez.
But it's the truth i tell you! :confused:
 
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no matter how you feel about the dueling system, nearly every player that tries to go "oh wow i really love chivalry and m&b! i want that in mb2!" doesn't for a second consider the impact those changes will have on open mode

no matter what dueling is like, the current system mechanics (the very basic ones that have barely changed between builds, except with some mechanical changes after rc1-> rc2's general bbox to g2 change except for the brief bbox resurgence in ..v0?) are perfect for open mode

jedi need to be able to hold positions for their team, and be able to manipulate their lightsaber with relative ease. swinging the camera around to manipulate swings and having some sort of ridiculously unforgiving sidewhack/backwhack accuracy would make trying to support your team truly obnoxious
 

SeV

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We used to have camera based mechanics in MBII. PB used to be based around your camera aim of the lightsaber. The problem is that this led to something called 'yawing' which is basically raping your mouse to bug the attack and hitbox to make it impossible to block. Just alot of camera shaking basically, no real finesse or skill to that. PB wise it wasn't as bad as it was attack wise. Since you could spin and rape ur cam but still hit ur attacks, it made for really weird unclear and bad combat. It is good that we've gotten rid of camera based mechanics such as these, as they just made the system bad.

Now it takes skill to attack effectively instead of randomly raping your mouse you have to combo properly to make your opponent slip up with his PBs. And vice-versa with PBs, you can sometimes predict your opponents combos. Some opponents do the same thing over and over, so you can just block all their attacks and kill them if they don't adjust their attacks. In the old system, a yaw couldn't really be blocked properly, but now it can. That's good. I'm afraid that it's not good for MBII sabering if we add camera based attack/PB back.

At this point we've got a system that functions very well without these things, so there's simply no need to reimplement it.
 
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swings and having some sort of ridiculously unforgiving sidewhack/backwhack accuracy would make trying to support your team truly obnoxious
The irony here! I'm not trying to sound mean but, the irony. If its my job to hold a position for my team, and another jedi/sith approaches. I'm going to have to go out of my way here and "tapdance" all over the floor for an upward slash. You call a minor pitch to the left/right obnoxious when its apparent that you have to make several adjustments in your movement to even correctly input the slash you want? I shouldn't have to move my body around in a crucial area. I shouldn't have to make several changes to my movement just because an enemy is present. I shouldn't even have to be balls deep in the enemy to pb or guard effectively. Likewise, the enemy shouldn't be tempted to move at kissing range because he has to make the same adjustments i do. All the while your team looks in aw as you parade your way into their shots and 'nades because "you didn't move properly".

Its proper mad.
 

SeV

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I'm going to have to go out of my way here and "tapdance" all over the floor for an upward slash.

Its proper mad.

All you need to do is hold walk, tap the direction+attack. You barely move. It's something that requires a bit of skill and familiarity with the system to pull off. Instead of trying to change the system how about you learn it first? It's very deep and not something you can grasp after a few hours of random gameplay.
 
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