Momentum Dueling - Toxic or Productive?

JokerLel

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Preface
If you dislike reading, click off this forum post as I'm tired of people complaining when I practice momentum dueling on the duel servers. They sit there and lame me before I can fully explain my argument - so I shall do so here. 80% of people won't read this, so it'll at least be a hyperlink I can send in the chat when someone complains. I've wrote about this several times in discord servers before - but I was told I should make a post about it on the forums since discussion like this is welcome here. This post is full of grammatical errors and run-on sentences as I'm just rapidly thought-dumping, so it's not particularly enjoyable to read anyways. I know I've only been playing the game for 6 months and I'm not a top-tier duelist yet - but when I become the best this will become much more credible.

A Case For Productivity
To start, I'm a strong advocate for momentum dueling in MBII. For those who don't know what it is - I shall explain: Momentum dueling is when you end the duel upon reaching low health or if you're certain someone's about to make the killing blow. Preferably, your opponent will do the same so no kills are had. You then immediately re-enter the duel. The only level of skill it requires to do this is having your end duel control bound to something easy to tap (I use the End key on my Numpad) - and also making sure you only end when you're certain you're about to die, which is easier than most think. Avoid ending the duel just because you get low or you'll lose out on defensive and retreating practice (however, if you're not focusing on this aspect of combat it's fine).

Why?

Well - as the name suggests - it's about momentum. There's extensive research in psychology when it comes to learning - which is also applied to game design in a concept called 'Newtonian Engagement'. It's based on the law that states that an object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force - except in this case the law is that a player engaged in a game will remain engaged in that game until acted upon by an outside force. Whenever your mom calls you for dinner, you reach a level select screen in a video game, you return to your hideout in Tarkov, or you get killed on [tR] Deathstar and get put into spectator mode before the next round (a few examples) you trigger what's called a 're-evaluation' point. This is where the gamer/learner decides if they want to continue engaging in their activity because they've been pulled out of their flow state.

Game designers go to extensive lengths to minimize the amount and frequency of re-evaluation points in their games to increase average playtimes. They're not something you want to avoid though, re-evaluation points are necessary in order to prevent burnout and to give the player time to make long-term decisions (changing your loadout in Tarkov, changing your class while you're spectating in response to an enemy tactic [most people are brainless in open mode and most don't do this anyways], etc). A good example of this is in Battle Royale games. The typical amount (depending on time to kill and average lifespan) of players in a BR game is 100. The reason it's not 10 is because the matches are short and you reach re-evaluation points too frequently - which leads to a decrease in playtime. It's not 200 because it drags on too long and the players burnout and are more likely to quit playing at the re-evaluation point anyways (obviously there are other factors like what the servers can handle and mapsize/player density and etc - but this is a factor you see in their game design documents).

Outside of games, which was the most relevant example, this applies heavily to learning. If you're studying for an exam the smallest distractions will demolish your flow-state no matter how big or small - as research shows the size of the distraction actually doesn't have much bearing. (I know I'm citing a lot of 'research', but I'm not trying to make a professional paper here). So, something as simple as a subtle buzz from your phone will impair your ability to learn and concentrate.

So, then. What are the re-evaluation points when you're on a duel server? In my opinion, it's each time an opponent dies in a private duel - and also the cooldown between rounds. You can also count map changes, but this is too infrequent to matter. When you or your opponent is killed in a private duel, you trigger a re-evaluation point and you decide if you want to keep dueling that person and if you even want to keep dueling at all. Your mind is relieved from the flow and concentration of dueling and begins to evaluate things outside of the game. You reach this re-evaluation point in dueling VERY often. Once you kill your opponent you wait for them to come back - if they'll even come back at all (this is even worse depending on the map/time it takes to return to you) or you decide to duel someone else (they may also decide to go duel someone else as well or just leave the server/saying they've had enough).

These moments constantly kill your flow state when dueling. You're still learning of course, but not as well as you could if you were in a solid flow state for a significant amount of time (only reaching your re-evaluation point at the cooldown between rounds instead of every 20-40 seconds). For most, it's not that much of a nuisance. However, I've found I'm able to learn significantly faster and get a lot more out of my gameplay sessions by practicing momentum dueling (bonus if you're tank-dueling or doing weighted dueling techniques). When you break out of your flowstate you also magnify the part of your brain that avoids pain/uncomfortability when you start to consciously think about it. This is common when you're dueling someone around or slightly above your level. The duels aren't completely one-sided and they take a lot of effort to decide. You'll notice rivals or players who engage in these consciously or unconsciously don't enjoy them and will avoid them after the duel - but not while in the flow state. This is also an ego problem that prevents people from learning because they see the server list full of people that trigger this pain aversion and think twice about joining - but that's out of scope. It's also worth noting that almost every other fighting game also minimizes these re-evaluation points by at least having the rounds happen in quick succession.

Toxicity and Ego
Now. It sounds great - but the reason I'm unable to engage in momentum duels very often is because it's perceived as extremely toxic. In an environment where ego-lords sit in discord servers talking about how good they are and battling with their ego's like they're pokemon instead of actually dueling - you can imagine why this is disliked. Depriving someone of their ego kill is blasphemy. You also have people who think you're egoing them when you end the duel before they're about to kill you - and can't accept that this is also a victory for them. This is all understandable of course, and I encourage these people to simply not duel me. For some reason, they think when I say to avoid dueling me that this is also an ego challenge - and they continue to engage in duels: a cycle of ego inflation for them. You also have the people who lame you when you end the duel anyways.

Consent
Of course, the question is if I should be asking people if they want to engage in momentum duels with me instead of always practicing it. Most people are good sports about it, and actually compliment the method, but the productivity of the method decreases each time you run into an ego-lord or dopamine junkie who sits there and argues with you for 5 minutes after each duel. This is left to opinion, but I don't really care about the person I'm dueling - especially if they're an ego-lord. Everyone else who exists in the game is a vessel of knowledge and skill that I'm here to absorb in order to become the best. It's selfish - but I don't care. I think communication is essential of course, since ending the duel when someone doesn't expect it will catch anyone off-guard. More often than not though, I find people enjoy the method and keep dueling me because of the high-intensity and thrill the flow state provides - only those with fragile egos and an obsession with their 30-0 K/D's they farmed from white names really complain.

Conclusion
In any case, it's unlikely I'll be able to practice momentum dueling even though I've garnered successful results from it. The way of dueling as it is now works for most people, so it'll only cause annoyance when someone attempts to challenge the status quo. A lot of people focus too much on winning duels instead of learning from duels as you won't find many people who like to tank duel or only practice specific techniques in duels like investing extra energy into practicing swing selection until it becomes instinct, or excessively slapping to practice timings among other mechanics to practice - knowing that they'll usually lose but learn those techniques solidly. Most people at the high level know that playtime doesn't matter - dueling 5 hours a day is much slower than deliberately practicing by watching back your gameplay and restricting/weighing yourself down in duels in order to learn. People don't do that because it takes effort and it's not particularly fun for you or your ego - which is what most people play for anyways. At the very least, I hope I've informed a few people about the benefits of momentum dueling in MBII. If you don't want to make it a lifestyle - then at the very least consider doing it as a drill (even though it's not really a drill which focuses on a specific aspect of combat). Farewell.
 

FrenzY

Movie Battles II Team
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Would much rather have private duelers respawn near eachother, which was a feature concept @Tempest and I considered and iirc had a rough template for. I don't approve of 'duel_end' spam unless of course, both parties consent as you stated.
 

Leo

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This better be some funny guy behind you
Otherwise I will think only of bad things in your name, JOKER LEL
 
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Preface
If you dislike reading, click off this forum post as I'm tired of people complaining when I practice momentum dueling on the duel servers. They sit there and lame me before I can fully explain my argument - so I shall do so here. 80% of people won't read this, so it'll at least be a hyperlink I can send in the chat when someone complains. I've wrote about this several times in discord servers before - but I was told I should make a post about it on the forums since discussion like this is welcome here. This post is full of grammatical errors and run-on sentences as I'm just rapidly thought-dumping, so it's not particularly enjoyable to read anyways. I know I've only been playing the game for 6 months and I'm not a top-tier duelist yet - but when I become the best this will become much more credible.

A Case For Productivity
To start, I'm a strong advocate for momentum dueling in MBII. For those who don't know what it is - I shall explain: Momentum dueling is when you end the duel upon reaching low health or if you're certain someone's about to make the killing blow. Preferably, your opponent will do the same so no kills are had. You then immediately re-enter the duel. The only level of skill it requires to do this is having your end duel control bound to something easy to tap (I use the End key on my Numpad) - and also making sure you only end when you're certain you're about to die, which is easier than most think. Avoid ending the duel just because you get low or you'll lose out on defensive and retreating practice (however, if you're not focusing on this aspect of combat it's fine).

Why?

Well - as the name suggests - it's about momentum. There's extensive research in psychology when it comes to learning - which is also applied to game design in a concept called 'Newtonian Engagement'. It's based on the law that states that an object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force - except in this case the law is that a player engaged in a game will remain engaged in that game until acted upon by an outside force. Whenever your mom calls you for dinner, you reach a level select screen in a video game, you return to your hideout in Tarkov, or you get killed on [tR] Deathstar and get put into spectator mode before the next round (a few examples) you trigger what's called a 're-evaluation' point. This is where the gamer/learner decides if they want to continue engaging in their activity because they've been pulled out of their flow state.

Game designers go to extensive lengths to minimize the amount and frequency of re-evaluation points in their games to increase average playtimes. They're not something you want to avoid though, re-evaluation points are necessary in order to prevent burnout and to give the player time to make long-term decisions (changing your loadout in Tarkov, changing your class while you're spectating in response to an enemy tactic [most people are brainless in open mode and most don't do this anyways], etc). A good example of this is in Battle Royale games. The typical amount (depending on time to kill and average lifespan) of players in a BR game is 100. The reason it's not 10 is because the matches are short and you reach re-evaluation points too frequently - which leads to a decrease in playtime. It's not 200 because it drags on too long and the players burnout and are more likely to quit playing at the re-evaluation point anyways (obviously there are other factors like what the servers can handle and mapsize/player density and etc - but this is a factor you see in their game design documents).

Outside of games, which was the most relevant example, this applies heavily to learning. If you're studying for an exam the smallest distractions will demolish your flow-state no matter how big or small - as research shows the size of the distraction actually doesn't have much bearing. (I know I'm citing a lot of 'research', but I'm not trying to make a professional paper here). So, something as simple as a subtle buzz from your phone will impair your ability to learn and concentrate.

So, then. What are the re-evaluation points when you're on a duel server? In my opinion, it's each time an opponent dies in a private duel - and also the cooldown between rounds. You can also count map changes, but this is too infrequent to matter. When you or your opponent is killed in a private duel, you trigger a re-evaluation point and you decide if you want to keep dueling that person and if you even want to keep dueling at all. Your mind is relieved from the flow and concentration of dueling and begins to evaluate things outside of the game. You reach this re-evaluation point in dueling VERY often. Once you kill your opponent you wait for them to come back - if they'll even come back at all (this is even worse depending on the map/time it takes to return to you) or you decide to duel someone else (they may also decide to go duel someone else as well or just leave the server/saying they've had enough).

These moments constantly kill your flow state when dueling. You're still learning of course, but not as well as you could if you were in a solid flow state for a significant amount of time (only reaching your re-evaluation point at the cooldown between rounds instead of every 20-40 seconds). For most, it's not that much of a nuisance. However, I've found I'm able to learn significantly faster and get a lot more out of my gameplay sessions by practicing momentum dueling (bonus if you're tank-dueling or doing weighted dueling techniques). When you break out of your flowstate you also magnify the part of your brain that avoids pain/uncomfortability when you start to consciously think about it. This is common when you're dueling someone around or slightly above your level. The duels aren't completely one-sided and they take a lot of effort to decide. You'll notice rivals or players who engage in these consciously or unconsciously don't enjoy them and will avoid them after the duel - but not while in the flow state. This is also an ego problem that prevents people from learning because they see the server list full of people that trigger this pain aversion and think twice about joining - but that's out of scope. It's also worth noting that almost every other fighting game also minimizes these re-evaluation points by at least having the rounds happen in quick succession.

Toxicity and Ego
Now. It sounds great - but the reason I'm unable to engage in momentum duels very often is because it's perceived as extremely toxic. In an environment where ego-lords sit in discord servers talking about how good they are and battling with their ego's like they're pokemon instead of actually dueling - you can imagine why this is disliked. Depriving someone of their ego kill is blasphemy. You also have people who think you're egoing them when you end the duel before they're about to kill you - and can't accept that this is also a victory for them. This is all understandable of course, and I encourage these people to simply not duel me. For some reason, they think when I say to avoid dueling me that this is also an ego challenge - and they continue to engage in duels: a cycle of ego inflation for them. You also have the people who lame you when you end the duel anyways.

Consent
Of course, the question is if I should be asking people if they want to engage in momentum duels with me instead of always practicing it. Most people are good sports about it, and actually compliment the method, but the productivity of the method decreases each time you run into an ego-lord or dopamine junkie who sits there and argues with you for 5 minutes after each duel. This is left to opinion, but I don't really care about the person I'm dueling - especially if they're an ego-lord. Everyone else who exists in the game is a vessel of knowledge and skill that I'm here to absorb in order to become the best. It's selfish - but I don't care. I think communication is essential of course, since ending the duel when someone doesn't expect it will catch anyone off-guard. More often than not though, I find people enjoy the method and keep dueling me because of the high-intensity and thrill the flow state provides - only those with fragile egos and an obsession with their 30-0 K/D's they farmed from white names really complain.

Conclusion
In any case, it's unlikely I'll be able to practice momentum dueling even though I've garnered successful results from it. The way of dueling as it is now works for most people, so it'll only cause annoyance when someone attempts to challenge the status quo. A lot of people focus too much on winning duels instead of learning from duels as you won't find many people who like to tank duel or only practice specific techniques in duels like investing extra energy into practicing swing selection until it becomes instinct, or excessively slapping to practice timings among other mechanics to practice - knowing that they'll usually lose but learn those techniques solidly. Most people at the high level know that playtime doesn't matter - dueling 5 hours a day is much slower than deliberately practicing by watching back your gameplay and restricting/weighing yourself down in duels in order to learn. People don't do that because it takes effort and it's not particularly fun for you or your ego - which is what most people play for anyways. At the very least, I hope I've informed a few people about the benefits of momentum dueling in MBII. If you don't want to make it a lifestyle - then at the very least consider doing it as a drill (even though it's not really a drill which focuses on a specific aspect of combat). Farewell.
High-effort shitpost. Appropriate name.

10/10.
 

JokerLel

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High-effort shitpost. Appropriate name.

10/10.
Not sure if this is a passive-aggressive insult or a compliment, but if you're calling it a shitpost I'm not sure why - as I presented a valid argument and a viable method of playing. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I have found it useful so I thought I'd share/argue against the people who get upset about it.

Would much rather have private duelers respawn near eachother, which was a feature concept @Tempest and I considered and iirc had a rough template for. I don't approve of 'duel_end' spam unless of course, both parties consent as you stated.
That sounds great. It's obviously far from being a top priority in terms of development, but this would solve the problem without hurting anyone's ego.
 

Hessu

Internal Beta Team
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Whats the point of dueling if neither of you wins? "momentum dueling" more like ha you didn't kill me dueling. Killing your opponent is not about ego, its just how the game is designed.
 

JokerLel

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Whats the point of dueling if neither of you wins? "momentum dueling" more like ha you didn't kill me dueling. Killing your opponent is not about ego, its just how the game is designed.
Are you incapable of reading? I typed several paragraphs about the point of momentum dueling if neither of the participants win. Do you want me to repeat my entire argument to you? Is there something in particular you didn't understand? To put it simply for you, the point is rapid practice and learning in order to achieve a flow state. Also - obviously it's how the game is designed, but in most games there are alternative methods of playing and practicing in order to enhance your learning or gameplay.

"more like ha you didn't kill me dueling"

That was exactly my point when I discussed how it's perceived as toxic and an affront to someone's ego. It's not preferable to end the duel, but until the mechanic FrenzY brought up is implemented, then it's the best way to practice the technique I brought up. I don't even momentum duel personally anymore since I'm tired of people crying in duel servers whenever I do it.
 

Hessu

Internal Beta Team
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Are you incapable of reading? I typed several paragraphs about the point of momentum dueling if neither of the participants win. Do you want me to repeat my entire argument to you? Is there something in particular you didn't understand? To put it simply for you, the point is rapid practice and learning in order to achieve a flow state. Also - obviously it's how the game is designed, but in most games there are alternative methods of playing and practicing in order to enhance your learning or gameplay.

"more like ha you didn't kill me dueling"

That was exactly my point when I discussed how it's perceived as toxic and an affront to someone's ego. It's not preferable to end the duel, but until the mechanic FrenzY brought up is implemented, then it's the best way to practice the technique I brought up. I don't even momentum duel personally anymore since I'm tired of people crying in duel servers whenever I do it.
I skipped most of that because its a big load of shit tbh. I don't see why wouldn't you play normally, especially when wins aren't always guaranteed even if your opponent is low on bp. When you end duel like that, you're skipping the part where you could actually have a comeback and win the duel. You learn less when you don't play all the way to the end. Calling it a technique is just insane and i don't understand how you can have any flow if you stop the duel before its truly over
 
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The fundamental problem with this concept is that the goal of dueling isn't to learn; the goal of dueling is to beat your opponent. By re-orienting this goal you are arguably making the whole exercise pointless (no one learns how to play tennis for its own sake, they learn tennis so they can play the game against an opponent and ultimately win/lose).

The idea is also inherently subjective, inconsistent and open to a great deal of abuse. You practically rid yourself of any opportunity to come back from a perceived loss. I can't count how many times I thought I was about to lose a duel and managed to win despite the odds. I'd argue this impacts your ability to learn how to duel far more than the micro-periods in which you're no longer in a flow state.

Secondly, how would you address the problem of players ending their duels too early or too frequently? Now that you've lost the objective "win/lose" conditions for the subjective "I thought I won/I thought I lost" conditions, you create an array of unnecessary problems. You'd naturally become complacent when your opponent is ending the duels far too early, and as such wouldn't be improving in yet another sense. You'd perceive yourself as the better player when your opponent is ending the duels far too frequently, despite the fact they're now entirely restricting their own ability to "come back". If you manage to find a dueling partner who similarly values a constant flow-state as opposed to actually improving, then by all means practice this way. But I'd advise against doing so.

On a side note, I do sympathise with your distaste toward ego duelists, but in a 15 year old mod with a miniscule, die-hard community it's impossible to remove them from the equation. In fact I'd argue ego is probably what has kept duel mode alive after all these years. However, the irony of criticising egotism in duel mode and then in the very same post announcing your intention to "become the best duelist" shouldn't be lost on anyone lol
 

JokerLel

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The fundamental problem with this concept is that the goal of dueling isn't to learn; the goal of dueling is to beat your opponent. By re-orienting this goal you are arguably making the whole exercise pointless (no one learns how to play tennis for its own sake, they learn tennis so they can play the game against an opponent and ultimately win/lose).

The idea is also inherently subjective, inconsistent and open to a great deal of abuse. You practically rid yourself of any opportunity to come back from a perceived loss. I can't count how many times I thought I was about to lose a duel and managed to win despite the odds. I'd argue this impacts your ability to learn how to duel far more than the micro-periods in which you're no longer in a flow state.

Secondly, how would you address the problem of players ending their duels too early or too frequently? Now that you've lost the objective "win/lose" conditions for the subjective "I thought I won/I thought I lost" conditions, you create an array of unnecessary problems. You'd naturally become complacent when your opponent is ending the duels far too early, and as such wouldn't be improving in yet another sense. You'd perceive yourself as the better player when your opponent is ending the duels far too frequently, despite the fact they're now entirely restricting their own ability to "come back". If you manage to find a dueling partner who similarly values a constant flow-state as opposed to actually improving, then by all means practice this way. But I'd advise against doing so.

On a side note, I do sympathise with your distaste toward ego duelists, but in a 15 year old mod with a miniscule, die-hard community it's impossible to remove them from the equation. In fact I'd argue ego is probably what has kept duel mode alive after all these years. However, the irony of criticising egotism in duel mode and then in the very same post announcing your intention to "become the best duelist" shouldn't be lost on anyone lol
I appreciate your actual constructed response instead of Hessu's barbaric ramblings. You're correct about learning how to recover and the problem with ending the duels too early or too frequently is valid, which is a point I outlined briefly in the post. It's fair to say that when you're about to lose, you also get kicked into a special mode of heightened senses and adrenaline that you don't capture as potently when you've been in the flow state for a long period of time. I'd say momentum dueling prioritizes the opening and mid-game of a duel a lot more than the ending for this reason - so it is good for people who suffer with the opening and the main body of dueling. In which case, I would say you've changed my mind about momentum dueling as a way of playing and instead would encapsulate it into just another technique or drill like tank duelling (which has the same problems you mentioned among others - but improves you faster in the areas it's meant to).

I wouldn't necessarily agree with not advising people to practice this way, however. I can agree if you meant as an actual way of constantly playing, though. I would also note that from experience I don't ever typically miss out on playing defensive/clutching/recovering and have gotten really good at ending when I'm certain I'm about to die (I know there's definitely faults like possibly getting a lucky/unexpected PB/they swing into my crosshair - but I can see how others would be nervous and hesitant about this).

I would also highlight something I should've mentioned in the post as well, which is that the technique is especially great if it's a less skilled player fighting someone significantly better than them. This also makes the clutch/recovery concern a non-issue since it's not really the biggest factor in the less skilled player losing typically. For this reason I would also say the drill (which I'm fine with calling it now since it is focusing on specific aspects) is best used in these situations instead of against two people on the same level.

To address your argument about the clutch/recovery burst being better than outright achieving the flow state - I think this is exactly why I used the technique in the first place. When you've gotten good at ending the duel when you're almost certain you're about to lose - then you get into this state of adrenaline I mentioned earlier that you get when a duel is coming to a close and you're recovering/regenerating/clutching/playing defensive to stay alive - then when you end it and rapidly get into the duel this heightened feeling always carries over and doesn't get killed by having to walk back or reach a re-evaluation point. I have my best moments and bursts of learning when I'm in this heightened state and I want it to flow for longer in my dueling sessions instead of being abruptly ended.

You're right about ego, it's definitely a benefit to the mod as much as much as it can be a downside. I don't think saying I want to become the best duelist is necessarily a toxic ego, but I do see your point. It didn't need to be included in the post. In all, I think you've matured my thoughts on the method and I definitely don't advocate for it as strongly anymore. I do still believe it has a place as at least a drill until the mechanic FrenzY mentioned is implemented, however.
 
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Whats the point of dueling if neither of you wins?
tl;dr this method is based around getting as much raw constant dueling as fast and often as possible with little inbetween periods, so that the most possible practice can be had, while dying+respawning+walking back puts a damper in practicing as much as possible

it's not about winning the victory it's about dueling for the sake of dueling+practice, if there was a server where gunners just 24/7 deathmatch eachother nonstop i'd play that too
 

Leo

Internal Beta Team
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tl;dr this method is based around getting as much raw constant dueling as fast and often as possible with little inbetween periods, so that the most possible practice can be had, while dying+respawning+walking back puts a damper in practicing as much as possible

it's not about winning the victory it's about dueling for the sake of dueling+practice, if there was a server where gunners just 24/7 deathmatch eachother nonstop i'd play that too
Yes. You definitely need to train 14:40 of 15:00 total in round instead of 13:00 to get better. I definitely agree it is most needed and very productive to cancel duel before death just so you don't need to walk another 10 seconds.


Obviously this is a bait. 0/8
Very, fucking, shit thought JokerLEL
 

Hessu

Internal Beta Team
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tl;dr this method is based around getting as much raw constant dueling as fast and often as possible with little inbetween periods, so that the most possible practice can be had, while dying+respawning+walking back puts a damper in practicing as much as possible

it's not about winning the victory it's about dueling for the sake of dueling+practice, if there was a server where gunners just 24/7 deathmatch eachother nonstop i'd play that too
Yes having to walk 5 seconds from spawn really hurts your learning process
 
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I appreciate your actual constructed response instead of Hessu's barbaric ramblings. You're correct about learning how to recover and the problem with ending the duels too early or too frequently is valid, which is a point I outlined briefly in the post. It's fair to say that when you're about to lose, you also get kicked into a special mode of heightened senses and adrenaline that you don't capture as potently when you've been in the flow state for a long period of time. I'd say momentum dueling prioritizes the opening and mid-game of a duel a lot more than the ending for this reason - so it is good for people who suffer with the opening and the main body of dueling. In which case, I would say you've changed my mind about momentum dueling as a way of playing and instead would encapsulate it into just another technique or drill like tank duelling (which has the same problems you mentioned among others - but improves you faster in the areas it's meant to).

I wouldn't necessarily agree with not advising people to practice this way, however. I can agree if you meant as an actual way of constantly playing, though. I would also note that from experience I don't ever typically miss out on playing defensive/clutching/recovering and have gotten really good at ending when I'm certain I'm about to die (I know there's definitely faults like possibly getting a lucky/unexpected PB/they swing into my crosshair - but I can see how others would be nervous and hesitant about this).

I would also highlight something I should've mentioned in the post as well, which is that the technique is especially great if it's a less skilled player fighting someone significantly better than them. This also makes the clutch/recovery concern a non-issue since it's not really the biggest factor in the less skilled player losing typically. For this reason I would also say the drill (which I'm fine with calling it now since it is focusing on specific aspects) is best used in these situations instead of against two people on the same level.

To address your argument about the clutch/recovery burst being better than outright achieving the flow state - I think this is exactly why I used the technique in the first place. When you've gotten good at ending the duel when you're almost certain you're about to lose - then you get into this state of adrenaline I mentioned earlier that you get when a duel is coming to a close and you're recovering/regenerating/clutching/playing defensive to stay alive - then when you end it and rapidly get into the duel this heightened feeling always carries over and doesn't get killed by having to walk back or reach a re-evaluation point. I have my best moments and bursts of learning when I'm in this heightened state and I want it to flow for longer in my dueling sessions instead of being abruptly ended.

You're right about ego, it's definitely a benefit to the mod as much as much as it can be a downside. I don't think saying I want to become the best duelist is necessarily a toxic ego, but I do see your point. It didn't need to be included in the post. In all, I think you've matured my thoughts on the method and I definitely don't advocate for it as strongly anymore. I do still believe it has a place as at least a drill until the mechanic FrenzY mentioned is implemented, however.
did anyone actually read all this? lol.
 

Duckshark

Internal Beta Team
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You know you said something stupid when even @Recourse gets on the forums to say something about it, lol.

Hope you're enjoying dueling retirement btw.

Edit ~10:20 PM EST: Just putting this here for anyone who thinks this is a "successful training method":
Sandbox_Duel_Tournament_11-7-2021.PNG



Edit #2 ~12:50 AM EST:

1636869023977.png


Edit #3 ~ 1:15 AM EST:
1636870597423.png
 
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JokerLel

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Yes. You definitely need to train 14:40 of 15:00 total in round instead of 13:00 to get better. I definitely agree it is most needed and very productive to cancel duel before death just so you don't need to walk another 10 seconds.


Obviously this is a bait. 0/8
Very, fucking, shit thought JokerLEL
You obviously didn't read the post, not investing effort to try responding to someone trying to ridicule me for a laugh.
did anyone actually read all this? lol.
Based on some of the replies, clearly not.
You know you said something stupid when even @Recourse gets on the forums to say something about it, lol.

Hope you're enjoying dueling retirement btw.
It's not stupid. It's a completely valid drill that I've had a lot of success with. I'm guessing you don't care though since even on discord you're constantly antagonizing me over everything I say - if I said I loved kittens you'd lay out your thesis on why I need to be institutionalized.

In any event, I've already had at least one fruitful reply on this post to further develop the discussion and idea, which is enough for me. Not going to bother trying to respond to people like Leo who will respond to my response with "huhhh?!?! u said something so ((long can u shorten for my brain plz" so they can have a hearty giggle about how clever they think they made themselves look.
 
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