Dodge Replacement

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by CC-1119 'Appo', May 25, 2019.

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How would you rework dodge?

  1. Option 1 - Remove dodge, replace it with Hero dash on all classes.

  2. Option 2 - Add a windup and cooldown to dodge, prevent the user from firing while it is active.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. CC-1119 'Appo'

    CC-1119 'Appo' Donator Internal Beta Team

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    Will be throwing a few threads up covering some of the busted shit in moviebattles and praying that more outcry = it gets fixed. Figured this was a relatively non-controversial ability to start with. Have to preface this by saying that this is probably going to piss some people off, but if I'm being completely honest, I'm alright with pissing off the people who crutch on the ability to toggle borderline godmode against blasters whenever they get in trouble.

    The poll only lists two options to quantify the responses into the categories provided by this post. Please, feel free to suggest other ways to rework dodge - the developers aren't solely going to look at the number of people voting when making a decision on how to deal with the dodge problem. Unique approaches to the problem which solve the core issue in a different way are certainly welcome and encouraged.

    Dodge as it currently stands in Moviebattles II functions as a literal godmode ability against blasters, it supposedly doesn't work when projectiles are fired from close range, when aimed at the head or from behind, but all three of these are janky at best and consistently non-functional at worst. The mechanic as it exists is extremely overpowered. You don't need to do anything or implement any skill to overcome your opponent's aim beyond simply pressing the button, which guarantees damage immunity from incoming fire for the duration of the ability whilst you can still fire with no drawbacks.

    I shouldn't have to explain why this is an issue in a competitive environment. But to put it simply, the core of the issue with dodge is that it allows a player to negate the effect of an opponent's weapon and thereby ignore their skill with a single button press all the while being allowed to return fire which can be critical in deciding a fight at high level play.


    The ability as it stands is far too powerful, and I'd go so far as to say an ability like this is actually incompatible with open gameplay. A skill-based shooter such as this should not incorporate abilities which requires no skill in order to execute, especially when using them gives you what functionally amounts to godmode against blasters.

    The way I see it, there are two ways to go about this in order to resolve the ridiculous problem that is dodge.

    Option one, remove dodge entirely from all classes that have it. This also includes removing Dash Level 2, which currently acts like dodge while it is active. Replace this removed ability with Dash on all classes which this change affects. If these classes need some sort of dodge ability it should be active, require thought and be counterable by a skilled player. It should not be a one-key-press functional godmode ability that prevents you from taking any damage from gunners. This is the option I prefer, Dash is an ability that gives a lot of movement options to otherwise slow classes and this is a significantly better form of 'manual dodge' than relying on automatic dodging.

    If that first one is unappealing because it is basically just copying an ability from one class onto another, then I propose a second solution. I must stress however that this second solution is still not really enough and while it would make Dodge less of a problem it would still be a problematic ability from a competitive view.

    Option two, remove dodge from dash level 2, remove the ability to fire while dodge is active and add a windup & cooldown window of 500 - 700ms to the start and end of dodging, to prevent instantly dodging on reaction and prevent instantly firing before & after the dodging period is over. Dodge should not function as an ability you activate in order to push the enemy or to instantly react to being outflanked and if it is to exist in MB2 it should exist entirely as an indirect combat ability designed not for taking an active part in heavy fighting but instead to make an escape from an exposed position, allowing a gunner to avoid incoming fire in general for a short duration but being completely vulnerable for a moment during the windup and cooldown of the dodge ability.

    This second solution however I disagree with on the grounds that it still requires no active engagement or skill to implement while providing a huge reward. Even in this second iteration it is still a one button press to make you (almost) completely immune to gunners for a sufficiently long window that you could use it to push angles you really shouldn't be able to as a gunner. In addition, there is also no way to really telegraph whether a player is in the wind up/cooldown period or dodging, which has the potential to be rather irritating.

    However on a competitive level this is a significantly healthier form of dodge than the one that is currently in-game, which is a literal godmode ability that allows you to fire ludicrously powerful weapons for a multi-life class without any possibility of retaliation for up to two seconds from most gunner attacks.

    EDIT: Food for thought. Some fun suggestions I have heard over the past few years included adding portable turrets to ET/COMM similar to the deployable turrets the clones have on Jedi Temple FA, or the mounted guns that can be deployed on that map by the clone engineers. Something like this could be a fun addition to the game and a viable replacement for dodge, being able to drop an auto turret which can assist in a firefight might be a fun angle to include though a deployable mounted gun is probably not going to be the first choice for the players who build their playstyle around dodge.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  2. JamJarBinks

    JamJarBinks

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    Or steal from Budokai Tenkaichi and give dodge a use counter. You press dodge and it's active until you dodge 3 shots, and then it's on a cooldown.

    That prevents you from dodging 31 players shooting at like Ultra Instict Shaggie, and it keeps the practical use of buffing an otherwise underwhelming class.
     
  3. LanceOfLonginus

    LanceOfLonginus Internal Beta Team

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    i hate dodge, no bones about it. it's funny that in all the time of mb2 it's consistently been the go to "get this shit out of my game" and even past iterations that nearly killed it, it comes back, here today in it's best form ever which is absolutely hilariously strong used right.

    on the other hand i love dash, mobility moves period, are all fun to play with and open up the game. I'd prefer other movement options for classes than a copy paste dash, although that would be better than nothing.

    And much as I hate to say it, 'cause saberists suck and I should feel no sympathy for them, with all that movement they're gonna have a bad time.
     
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  4. Threepwood

    Threepwood

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    The way dodge currently works:
     
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  5. Jeob

    Jeob

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    A funny idea is to make dodge work manually. Like in JKO and JKA singleplayer with R+movement direction you could manually make the dodge animations.
    R+W=the duck dodge animation
    R+A=left lean animation
    R+D=right lean animation
    R+S=lean back

    I can't predict whether it would be useless or broken good (depends on the exact implementation), but it would make a fine addition to memers/trolls collection either way.
    Most likely it would be just a show off tool, it would be better to just strafe left/right from a shot than going for a dodge move. I wonder how it would work against lightsabers (probably would be only good to style on newbie jedi).

    Anyway right now with meditation+crouch you can already do a show off dodge. I've done it a couple of times against snipers, but otherwise it's pretty useless. I imagine my proposed idea would work the same way, unless there's some good features to it, like you can fire while using the dodge animations, or you can very quickly recover from the animation and get moving again.
     
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  6. LanceOfLonginus

    LanceOfLonginus Internal Beta Team

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    A little more on my thoughts of this. Dodge is a specifically anti-gunner tool, with minimal/non-existant counterplay. Gunners tend to be the most deadly thing on the battlefield, they're the backbone of any team, and I personally like it that way. It does tend to show in gameplay too, Jedi/Sith can't kill each other nearly as quick as gunners can, so most rounds come down to who can clean up the gunners first then be left to duelfest it out, slowly I might add.

    Dodge slows down the gameplay by robbing people of good shots, and I don't think slow was ever in the quake3 cards, so movement options are a strong alternative to invulnerability. I can see an argument for dodge against snipers, however it hoses every gun, not just snipers, and movement is also a pretty potent tool to fight them, also more fair to both sides. Dodge: Sniper gets robbed of shots, dodger gets free ground for minimal investment. Dash: Still can be shot out of it, and it can be used more widely than dodge which is strictly for avoiding bullets (very good at that admittedly) but doesn't do a thing against a lightsaber.

    Anything that reduces offensive options and slows gameplay is a hard no from me, but I'm also the guy who wants 3:00 min rounds and BP drains doubled. :p

    This subject's seriously been through the ringer so many times though, I'm a little drained and amused about it. Saberists complain and get a new build every build, gunners complain about one thing they almost universally agree is shite and it's been here for over a decade.
     
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  7. Loaden

    Loaden

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    Dodge is that thing which makes weak Commander class to gunner counter class and Hero to cool front line brawler. You can counter Dodge with each class easily. Just move your mouse carefully left / right while firing on the enemy head. Your success rate depends on your aim skill. Faster laser projectile speed is already added. So even if you don't have Clone Blob or something else theres no reason to change Dodge.
     
  8. KaniganTheMando

    KaniganTheMando Internal Beta Team

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    The only fun balanced thing about dodge currently is using it to counter deflect as an actually-viable way of draining FP.
     
  9. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd

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    I agree with Loaden, dodge is what makes et/commander a viable class. While I do agree that it doesn't take much skill and is a bit frustrating to fight against, without it these classes would struggle with the current state of things.
     
  10. MuffledFat

    MuffledFat

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    I have to disagree, commander doesn't need dodge. I felt the point of it over soldier was the forward respawn for soldiers and the option for a more powerful rifle. If you don't have the aim or the teamwork to take advantage of those two things and you rely on dodge, then that just shows it's a crutch and not a necessity. You can say that all it takes to counter dodge is to aim at the head, but that's assuming that A: it registers correctly with dodge and B: they aren't good at moving under fire. If someone rounds a corner and starts changing from crouching to standing, I have to keep adjusting my aim on a small target that's changing vertically and horizontally whereas they can just shoot my chest til I'm dead. In a perfect world, I'm sure I could hit enough headshots that register to win a fight like that, but ultimately I don't have perfect aim, and neither does anybody else.
     
  11. jango40

    jango40

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    i like dodge as is
     
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