Saber changes 2018 edition

Stassin

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I believe the upcoming Saber vs Gun changes are being done very well by Tempest & the mb2 team and that's great. We can expect a refreshing patch in that regard.

Which leaves us with slightly more complicated, and controversial, Saber vs Saber gameplay tweaks. I'm not sure what is the state on that, there are multiple versions of it internally.

Regardless i wish to restate what i believe are core directions that need to be taken, and elaborate a little bit on them, as well as discussing a few more, less crucial tweaks. All these tweaks take the current public build as reference.



Core directions:
  • Either remove ACM and ACC entirely, or:
    • Revert ACM to a similar state to pre-v1.1: fast styles start gaining ACM at 8 ACC, medium styles 6 ACC, strong styles 4 ACC. Each ACM point gives a 1.3x multiplier to all BP drains (so 1 ACM = 1.3x, 2 ACM = (1.3)^2, 3 ACM = (1.3)^3 etc., the max being 9 ACM = (1.3)^9 = 10.6 - for the record in the old system 9 ACM had a 12x multiplier and the progression was harsher like 1.5x, 3x etc.).
    • ACC is strictly only gained (+1) and lost (-1) on bodyhits (first bodyhits of a chain only). Due to fast styles being different (blue is faster, cyan was FA-only) compared to the old system, they should have the single exception of losing 2 ACC when bodyhit by medium or strong styles.
  • Remove all perks, meaning that the differences between styles in all situations should be only ever be the stance animation, AP, BP, HP dmg, swing animations & speeds, chaining differences (max swings in a chain and chaining direction restrictions), and ACM as described above. Nothing else, nothing tied to mblocks nor parries nor PBs nor semi-PBs nor NB nor force powers nor being knocked down or anything.
  • Reintroduce old chaining direction restrictions (minimum of 3 quadrants for Red and Cyan, 2 quadrants for all other styles).
  • Replace perks with more extreme AP/BP differences, similar to the old system (pre-v1.1). In short, the AP/BP numbers for styles should be along the lines of: Yellow 12/56 (unchanged from old system), Blue 6/60, Cyan 8/52, Red 18/50 (great AP without nudge, and still decent BP), Purple 25/35 (harder to PB than red because of faster starting swings and softer chaining restriction, devastating AP, horrible BP, just like the old system but less extreme - it was 30/30), Duals 11/54 (powerhouse with a slight BP weakness), Staff 10/64 (tank with still decent power). These are somewhat crucial, much like removing ACM, in order to encourage style switching again.
  • Parries deal 20% of bodyhit damage, semi-PBs 50%, NBs 20% (if NB is introduced). They should all use the same calculations as bodyhits and just apply a factor to it, so that all situational modifiers are taken into account (for example if A and B are parrying each other, but A is walking and B running, B will deal less BP dmg because running swings are weaker).
  • Holding mouse 1 drains 4 BP per second (i.e. 1 BP per 250ms, just a simple drain activated when pressing mouse 1 with a 250ms debounce timer, not tied to swings or anything, only tied to pressing mouse 1), replacing current swing drains. This brings back the skill requirement to tap mouse 1 in order to optimize your BP.
  • Reduce overall BP regeneration and increase overall BP drains. Meaning compared to current standards, so that BP drains are more crippling and lasting, and fights quicker and harsher. Can't say an accurate number as i'm not coding and testing, but BP regen should be 1.5x lower than current at most, and BP drains something like 1.3x. The current BP regen if i'm not mistaken is 5BP per 400ms for Defense 2 and 3BP per 400ms for Defense 1: so it should be 4BP and 2BP respectively.


Less critical tweaks but still important (mix of my own ideas and ideas taken from sev's original post in I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why. that i believe are great):
  • Remove anything related to perfect parry.
  • I know some people don't like the idea, but i see little reason not to allow semi-PB in all types of interrupts and also while running, especially if overall swing drains are going to be quite high and regeneration low. It purely increases the skillcap and allows you to further outskill people 1vX.
  • Mblocks having an instacounter is good as a flavor to increase the skillcap but the instacounter should have no bonus damage, and also the mblock shouldn't stop the attacker's chain.
  • Short jumps with +use should cost no BP. Sev's idea, i think it subtly favors more jumping which would actually be great, as mb2 already totally discourages it in saber duels.
  • Some more of sev's changes. I'm unsure what the current public values are, but crouching should definitely at least reduce your dmg by 50% and increase your dmg taken by 50%, if not more. For jumping attacks there should be a risk vs reward factor, taking 30% more dmg while in the air but dealing 10% more dmg too.
  • Running attacks should deal at least -20% dmg, swingblocks normal dmg and walking non-swingblocks 10% more dmg. I know sev wants swingblocks to deal more dmg than non-swingblocks but i don't think anyone can agree with the reasoning behind that; yes theoretically speaking it takes more mechanical skill to swingblock, but the idea of swingblock is tied with "a more careful attack" which protects you against slap and mblock. For above average duelists where people have no trouble with the pure mechanics of swingblocking, it's actually a skillful decision-making flavor to purposely choose to not swingblock when you know you don't have to fear a slap or a mblock.
  • Finally i would like to see the point cost system changed so that jedi/sith are forced to buy yellow as their first style. This allows in particular to decrease the overall costs, each style could be 6 points instead of 8. Yellow itself should be 6 points, remember how in the old system you had both yellow and slow blue (useful for chasing other saberists and taking BP damage) for only 8 points. Overall i'd make Medium styles 6/4/4, Fast styles 6/0/4, Strong styles 6/0/4, provided that you are forced to buy medium styles lvl 1 to unlock fast styles and strong styles.


If i were the one coding, i would have a ton of smaller tweaks including more technical and non-visible things, but there is no point to detail these things as a mere spectator, the one implementing the changes has to choose and test these things.

The tweaks above are more general things that i believe would improve the system by a tremendous margin, regardless of what details are under the hood. And i'd like to believe i'm not alone in liking these general directions.
 
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I'm kind of sad they consider removing ACM. I love that mechanic... encourages other tactics than straight up hugging. Gives the fight sort of a momentum and punish the player for not blocking effectively without fucking him up totally. It was possible to recover... it rewarded for PBs as well with purple stance making it a good tool to encourage newcomers as me to learn to PB. Maybe rework it... but dont remove it... It maybe created a problem for some people but for the average player like me... it is a fun twist that open up a different approach to fighting an opponent. Don't just think about the 10 years old fan that hates the mechanic... (i exaggerate a bit) think about those joining in.... If duel becomes about close range twitching only... It will create a huge gap between skillful players and newcomer that might be impossible to fill and could possibly end up hurting the game. I understand they try making a very polished system and wants it to be skill based... Wich im cool with but to an extend youll need to make compromises if you want your game to live on.

Expand don't remove mechanics that opens up possibilities for a player...

I know it encourage a dodgy behavior to some people. Im guilty of that myself... But game or not who in their right mind would try to block and risk a hit if they can entirely avoid it? It's a normal behavior in general...
 
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^It takes more skill to PB than to dodge. If you dodge a few hits here and there it's fine, probably everyone does it me included, but if it's all you ever do it's annoying and such playstyle should not be encouraged. Thus why I'm happy with ACM removal. This will impact Open mode as well I believe. In the current patch good fucking luck fighting 1vs2 with ACM build ups and spams. No matter how more skilled you are than two opponents they will still beat you cuz ACM.
 
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^It takes more skill to PB than to dodge. If you dodge a few hits here and there it's fine, probably everyone does it me included, but if it's all you ever do it's annoying and such playstyle should not be encouraged. Thus why I'm happy with ACM removal. This will impact Open mode as well I believe. In the current patch good fucking luck fighting 1vs2 with ACM build ups and spams. No matter how more skilled you are than two opponents they will still beat you cuz ACM.
I agree on most of it... but to me it still adds something... having to keep the momentum in the fight like that. Im maybe the oddball here but I really enjoy that feature. I can see how it can cause problems in matches... But in good old fashioned 1vs1 build it adds an additional layer of strategy that I personally enjoy. I just dont want "strategy" in duels to be limited to hugging each other the whole time repeating the same patterns over and over. Might be skillful and stuff... but id like to feel like an actual jedi at time too. If it goes down to melee beating with a glowing stick and remove all movement then im sorrry to break it down to you but there is a lot of games that does it way better than this.

But then I only play in duels.... That's where I get my fun from. Even thought I suck bad at it... but focusing on trying to keep that momentum and succeeding at least gives me that feeling of progress that motivate me to get better and work on my PBs.

Dont forget the skill level of most of the community here is REALLY high.... frustratingly high. If they keep upping the game it will be good for them sure. But then how are we gonna get new players? I say -we- because im still gonna stick around. But I cant promise I will enjoy a static duel. I just dont want the fun to stop when it just started...

I wish there was a way to rework it. Perhaps instead of a buff in damage we could get an increase in incoming damage if we get hit without fighting back. Doing that would avoid stacking to kill multiple and only penalize the player whos not defending himself properly? I don't know...

I kinda understand the issue... But its still a mechanic that feels rewarding and fun on its own. Must be a way to give a similar satisfaction to player without altering the balance that much.
 

Stassin

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Removing ACM is a possibility, but i believe the much more appropriate option is to:
Revert ACM to a similar state to pre-v1.

In short, that means making ACM kick in only after you have a substantial lead in bodyhits, such as 6+ bodyhits compared to your opponent, and at the same time making it much more powerful. As opposed to the current state where it kicks in after you have a lead of 2 bodyhits and the bonus damage it gives ramps up slowly.
 
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Removing ACM is a possibility, but i believe the much more appropriate option is to:


In short, that means making ACM kick in only after you have a substantial lead in bodyhits, such as 6+ bodyhits compared to your opponent, at at the same time making it much more powerful. As opposed to the current state where it kicks in after you have a lead of 2 bodyhits and the bonus damage it gives ramps up slowly.
The bigger question is: Should we reward mindless spamming with more damage? I find acm silly because it's all about spamming more and trying to whack-a-mole (PB) and I don't get how that should be the key part of saber combat.
As of now most saberist with high kd just go around and backwack or sidewack people all day long.
 
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Removing ACM is a possibility, but i believe the much more appropriate option is to:


In short, that means making ACM kick in only after you have a substantial lead in bodyhits, such as 6+ bodyhits compared to your opponent, at at the same time making it much more powerful. As opposed to the current state where it kicks in after you have a lead of 2 bodyhits and the bonus damage it gives ramps up slowly.
That could be reasonable. Thanks for the detailed explanation if you had just quoted that id have no idea what it would feel like. I dont mind if they make it bit harder to pile up. But to remove it completely would be disapointing. When I see that circle grow im like "Hey im achieveing something! PROGRESS" and it definatly adds to my experience. While not perfect its satisfying for a new guy like me.
 
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The bigger question is: Should we reward mindless spamming with more damage? I find acm silly because it's all about spamming more and trying to whack-a-mole (PB) and I don't get how that should be the key part of saber combat.
As of now most saberist with high kd just go around and backwack or sidewack people all day long.
"Mindless spamming?" I don't consider having to carefully walk in and out the swing of an opponent as mindless spamming. It takes a lot of patience and you still need to get familiar with the different styles. Not even mentionning if the guy is using a very fast style its his fault for not fighting back. And stronger styles got more than the power to fight back. Trust me I tried the so called mindless spamming and usually it ends up doing shit as all the ACM I piled up gets burned down equally fast. You really have to go in between the swings. And its not always easy... Sure if I had played for so long I can shoot a guy blind across the map with a rocket then yeah... ill sure be able to abuse it. But EVERY GAME has this issue. Thats called mastery.
 
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I hope this does not become like the "flinch".

The ideas themselfs are not wrong, but i distrust Stassin on a fundemental level since he usually takes no critisism once a new system is in play. Just look at how long we are stuck with flinch because he just sucks playing as a gunner and refused to compromise at any level.
 
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After a while it becomes routine, muscle memory and it comes down to who times his attacks/counters better and who makes them more unpredictable and that's what takes most skill. Running around hiting your opponent and grinding ACM not so much.
Also, regarding "How will we get new players?" this may sound like a harsh opinion, but this game ain't revolved around new players so much imo, it's revolved around veterans. Like it or not, vets are what keeps this mod alive after all these years. So when it comes to gameplay changes, it's always best to listen to pros and experienced players speak out their opinions on the current system as they actually know best they're talking about.
 

Stassin

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I hope this does not become like the "flinch".

The ideas themselfs are not wrong, but i distrust Stassin on a fundemental level since he usually takes no critisism once a new system is in play. Just look at how long we are stuck with flinch because he just sucks playing as a gunner and refused to compromise at any level.
I like your feisty attitude. I've started played mb2 again a tiny bit lately, just tell me what servers you usually join we're bound to meet someday. I somewhat remember your name, unless you've improved several fold in the last year you better be scared no matter what class it is. Time for ego wars.
 
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After a while it becomes routine, muscle memory and it comes down to who times his attacks/counters better and who makes them more unpredictable and that's what takes most skill. Running around hiting your opponent and grinding ACM not so much.
Also, regarding "How will we get new players?" this may sound like a harsh opinion, but this game ain't revolved around new players so much imo, it's revolved around veterans. Like it or not, vets are what keeps this mod alive after all these years. So when it comes to gameplay changes, it's always best to listen to pros and experienced players speak out their opinions on the current system as they actually know best they're talking about.
i disagree

in fact its way more likely we'll keep new players than old players will come back. people get older and less interested in video games and star wars (generally) but new 13 year old RPers are always going to try out the mod when they see the 'THE BEST STAR WARS DUELING GAME YOU HAVENT HEARD OF' videos

if we can keep these 13 year old RPers we can make the mod popular, not the other way around. sure old player's opinions should still be valued but only if they're going to be constructive (i.e not say things like "just go back to b18 that was the best!!")

also your point about acm isnt true, u can outplay anyone with a run hit style, better still a run spam style
 
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People say that for years and still it's the experienced players that are keeping it alive somehow and most those 13 year old RPers come and go all within days/weeks. They don't stick around because it's "too hard to learn". But then if you make it less hard to learn you risk going against the very essence of the mod. If devs can find a perfect balance, then by all means go for it.

And I said it takes less skill, not that you can't outplay or win with it. On top of that, it's annoying as hell and not fun to play against. I'm hoping with removal/rework of ACM such playstyles will be discouraged.
 
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ACM is cancerous.
It promotes long ass duels into which you need to outplay opponents several times until you win, giving numerous chance for opponents to easily come back from his previous mistakes... :/

It's a bit less apparent, prevalent at low, to MED-tier dueling, but at high-tier dueling its basically just a combat of, 4 Swing-Block-Spam & Parries, trying to slap opponents to suck his ACM out of him while hes down, gaining some for your self while you're at it, trying to get few PBs there and there in between to preserve your own ACM, slowly gaining ACM.. slowly overcoming an opponent as you outplay it more... and more... and more... spamming at infinite to prevent opponents to gain ACM all while yours is slowy drainin his ACM and BPs.. slow duels... spam... slow... boring... depression.

Kill it, kill ACM now... good.. fucking good.


And finaly... at last.. the world was shining with happyness once again.
 
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Hessu

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ACM is cancerous.
It promotes long ass duels into which you need to outplay opponents several times until you win, giving numerous chance for opponents to easily come back from his previous mistakes... :/

It's a bit less apparent, prevalent at low, to MED-tier dueling, but at high-tier dueling its basically just a combat of, 4 Swing-Block-Spam & Parries, trying to slap opponents to suck his ACM out of him while hes down, gaining some for your self while you're at it, trying to get few PBs there and there in between to preserve your own ACM, slowly gaining ACM.. slowly overcoming an opponent as you outplay it more... and more... and more... spamming at infinite to prevent opponents to gain ACM all while yours is slowy drainin his ACM and BPs.. slow duels... spam... slow... boring... depression.

Kill it, kill ACM now... good.. fucking good.


And finaly... at last.. the world was shining with happyness once again.
Sounds like you dont know anything about high tier dueling lol
 
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Sounds like you dont know anything about high tier dueling lol
neither do you poop head

no but it just depends who you're against, like when i fight u its more of a half swing off but people like shady have 4 hit styles which are ridiculously effective for how easy it is to do
 
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If you read carefully... I said at the very begining

''basically''.

It is true what Noel says tho, but most high tierish people mostly do what i've writen up there
 

Hessu

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Most good players dont use 4 swing spam, if they do they will be slapped and get penetrated with my lightstick
 
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Thats the issue you see!

Top tiers are so good at swing-blocking, so good at predicting your potential incoming slaps, so good at yawing and have such on point combos that they can simply 4 spam you till death while avoiding 85%+/- of ur slaps and disarms.

If you show a single instant of weakness, they'll generally rush and they'll swing, they'll swing without giving you any chance to swing at your own turn.

So it become a boring battle of infinite swing blocking parries spams, slaps and mbs, few pbs to conserve ACM gain in early and near death phasis

The one who win is the one beter at it
 
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Most good players dont use 4 swing spam, if they do they will be slapped and get penetrated with my lightstick
half swing once bait slap 4 hit ez

fight pepito or mara they both have spammy styles compared to you and i and people call mara 'god tier' so it obviously works for him/her
 
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